2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 448 times)

Running Problem


Problem Child

     

    RP: Good to see you’re getting some better air quality these days.  I agree with you about form running downhill.  As a tall person, I find it really difficult to lean forward on steeper descents because of the fear of falling.

     

     

    Ironically, there is smoke blowing in today bringing the AQI back above 120. California should ban wildfires. They obviously don't care enough about managing public lands to spend money on it. They say it's federal lands so they're not responsible for it. Oddly enough, if this was SO2 or NOx being blown across state lines they'd have to control it the best way possible. By "best way possible" I mean "money is literally not even a concern so open up your bank account and max out the credit cards while looking for every penny you can to pay the bill you're about to receive."

    Ironic Edit:

    https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/californias-wildfires-had-an-invisible-effect-high-carbon-dioxide-emissions/

    California’s wildfires had an invisible effect: high carbon dioxide emissions

    Damn Global warming, and low fuel mpg ratings on trucks. America needs to do something about the CO2 emissions President Joe Biden blamed on Global Warming....when they were caused by Mother Nature, and a lack of money for land management owned/controlled by the Federal Government...

     

     

    JMac I'll see if I can remember to bring some stuff for ya. 2 beers post race must get you seriously buzzed just because of how much water you lose during a race.

     

    Flavio I find sometimes I have to urinate during runs. Even yesterday I had to go just about the time my warm up ended. I think it is a "stage fright" thing for me. Even on race days I'm looking for a spot to go minutes before the start of a race. If I had more friends around me I'd have them block me while I urinated on the public streets at the starting line. Outside of the corral of course.

     

    Cal Are you doing Quicksilver? I think you'd be in great shape for it, but maybe ultra marathon shape is very different than sub 3 shape. I didn't see your name on the ultrasignup roster.

    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

    VDOT 54.9

    5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

    CalBears


      JMac - man... sometimes I wonder if water makes you gaggle too Smile  Way too much things normal healthy person should not care about 

       

      RP - No, I am not doing Quicksilver in October - they gave us a choice to defer our previously cancelled registrations to this October or to next May (a regular date). So, I chose next May and will be running it then.

       

      I will go with 2 weeks taper this time. This week is the last with a higher mileage and then probably around 70% and 45% for the last two weeks. With some workouts of lesser intensity, I think.

      paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

      Running Problem


      Problem Child

        Cal WHOA! Are you considering Boston 2022 in April?

        Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

        VDOT 54.9

        5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

        CalBears


          Cal WHOA! Are you considering Boston 2022 in April?

           

          Will not be doing Boston in 2022. Mikkey will not be able to qualify - so, we moved our meet to Boston 2023. Meanwhile, I might run other marathons I have never ran before - there are some local ones which I am looking at.

          paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

          JMac11


          Milkman

            JMac - man... sometimes I wonder if water makes you gaggle too Smile  Way too much things normal healthy person should not care about 

             

             

            Vodka also makes me gag, so I'm definitely weak. Weird consistency gels warmed up near body temperature when you're 2 hours into a marathon?  I wish I had the stomach of DW and could take 9 gels. I have to take anti-nausea tablets every single race I'm in, otherwise I would vomit at the end of every race.

             

            Boston 23 is so far from now, but would have to sign up if you guys both are in.

            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

             

            Next Race: Brooklyn Half (5/21)

            mk885


              Hi

              thanks for all posts- very interesting- I just read intro and saw that this is not only for sub 3’s

              have been running for a few years and am signed up for the Philadelphia Marathon in Nov

              My first marathon, run 5k in 22:50, 10k in 48ish, 3x Halves in 1:55.

              Run approximately 100 miles a month for last 2+ years- 4 runs per week with long on sun- all slowly.

              I have been following Hal Higdon novice 2 program adapted because I started with 25 miles per week with 10 mile long run

              i have built up long run 2 Sunday’s ago to just over 19 miles and then 18 on past sun and planning on probably

              12 or 13 on this coming sun because mini taper before

              half on 3 oct and then decide if recover on

              10th oct with 12 or 13 (higdon plan does not have taper or recovery around half)

              then 20 on 17th,

              12 on 24th cutback and

              then 22 on 31st and then start taper with

              12 on 7th and then

              8 on 14th

              and marathon on 21st

              Thinking should try for 4:20 to be conservative or could push for 4 but probably too much especially as first marathon and everything is new!

              Thoughts on long runs, times, etc?  Suggestions?

              Thanks so much for your help

              Mike

              CalBears


                Hi Mike!

                 

                Just in case, what is your goal in this running journey? I guess, if you came here, the goal is to get faster, am I correct? Though I have doubts - because, according to your training log, you didn't seem to strive getting faster since 2019 - seems like you are very happy where you are all this time. If this is the case, not sure what you are looking for. But if you want to improve, that's the place you can get all the advice you are looking for. And mostly, you can read few dozens previous pages and see what people are doing and what kind of training you need to target to get to where they are.

                 

                You are doing Higdon plan - that's fine - follow the plan and see where it leads you at the end.

                 

                But I also see that you are kind of "obsessed" with a long runs numbers. That's fine, but that is where your (and plan's) problem is - you should be more "obsessed" with your weekly mileage, not with the length of your long run. The thumb rule - your long run should ideally be 25-30% of your weekly mileage. Based on experience, I can tell you that 50 miles week with 15 miles long run is way more productive than 30 miles week with 22 miles long run. I can see from your weeklies that your personal bests confirming that - you have 7:18 pace for 5K, 7:48 pace for 10K and and 8:48 pace for HM - you definitely lacking endurance. Your pace is going down way too dramatically from one distance to another. Just for example - my pace from 5K to 10K to HM to marathon is just of 10-15 seconds difference. I general I would say it should be around 20 seconds, I think.

                 

                So, ask questions if you are interested, but please know, the motto of this forum is (hopefully I cite it correctly) - run a lot, mostly slow, sometimes fast Smile

                paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                darkwave


                Mother of Cats

                   

                  Thoughts on long runs, times, etc?  Suggestions?

                  Thanks so much for your help

                  Mike

                   

                  So...your long run schedule looks very good and sensible to me.  Per Cal's point, long runs are only one part of a successful marathon training cycle - average weekly mileage is also key.

                   

                  As for time goals, I think that you should NOT target a specific time for this marathon.  Some because it's your first marathon and mostly because you've been following a training plan that appears focused on finishing, not on any specific time goal.

                   

                  Get this marathon under your belt, and then you can build towards a time goal in your next.

                   

                  And feel free to hang around here!

                  Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                   

                  And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                  Running Problem


                  Problem Child

                    Mk855 What are your currently weekly mileages looking like? I think the first goal of a first marathon is "just finish" because it takes a lot of stress over hitting a specific time and you learn a LOT during the race. I don't see a need for the 22 mile long run, and I also don't see it in his free online training calendar. The weeks he has you doing a 20 miler you do 35 miles total. I would suggest an easy 30 minute run these days just to get more miles in. I personally finished my first marathon horribly, and I found out I enjoyed the 30-60 minute runs more than 5k or 10k training so I stuck with it.

                    I'd suggest eating and drinking as you would during race day on long runs. If you plan to use the aid on the course find it locally and use it for training. If you plan to have a gel before the race start do it before your long run. The 20 mile long run is a great chance to find out what does and doesn't work. Including the race day clothes and anti chafe gel/cream/stick. Also remember on race day not to go out too fast. You can always speed up towards the end of the race or run more and walk less. It isn't fun going from running, to runnign and walking, to literally just walking and texting your wife you're 3 miles out and 30+ minutes away (behind goal time) looking for ANYTHING to help you after you've run out of water around mile 20. Speaking from experience.

                    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                    VDOT 54.9

                    5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                    JMac11


                    Milkman

                      I agree with RP on his point regarding 22 miles - absolutely not needed given your goals. You are more likely to injure yourself, or have trouble recovering, than gaining anything from that run. Some people argue you don't need to go over 2.5 hours on a long run, but I'd bump that up to 3 hours. That means if you're running around 10 minute miles, 18 miles is enough. If you want to go for 20 once, that's okay, but I think it's better to stick with multiple 18/19 mile runs at this point than continually increasing.

                      5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                       

                      Next Race: Brooklyn Half (5/21)

                      OMR


                        I'll hop in to say "welcome" to mk885 and add my thoughts to what has already been said.  I agree that the 22 isn't necessary, and that there is an exponentially increased risk when you get to that mileage and time on your feet.  Adding those two miles to a 20-mile run isn't going to do much for your physical fitness for the marathon, although it may boost your mental strength/confidence.  And you don't want to have to bail on your first marathon because you're injured (says the old man who won't be racing his half marathon this weekend because he is injured).

                         

                        FYI, I ran my first marathon on a Higdon plan (one of the advanced plans).  It worked well for me, given where I was at and my goals, and I really enjoyed the experience, in part because I wound up running with a high school kid who jumped into the marathon at the last minute, I think as a training run, and we probably ran at least the last 17 miles together.


                        Elite Jogger

                           

                          Will not be doing Boston in 2022. Mikkey will not be able to qualify - so, we moved our meet to Boston 2023. Meanwhile, I might run other marathons I have never ran before - there are some local ones which I am looking at.

                           

                          So are we looking at a possible European marathon next fall?  Spain? Portugal?  Make it easy for Andres and Flavio to be tempted. 

                           

                          Welcome Mike - I will probably be following something close to a beginners/intermediate Hal Higdon plan for the next 10 weeks...so don’t feel intimidated by the higher mileage runners on this thread. 

                          5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                          CalBears


                             So are we looking at a possible European marathon next fall?  Spain? Portugal?  Make it easy for Andres and Flavio to be tempted. 

                             

                            Welcome Mike - I will probably be following something close to a beginners/intermediate Hal Higdon plan for the next 10 weeks...so don’t feel intimidated by the higher mileage runners on this thread. 

                             

                            Yeah, sure. What are the candidates - can you list them - as many as you can - I would give my wife a daughter a choice of my goal marathon for the next year. I think you might need some time to train, so, spring or early summer races are probably not good candidates? Plus, hope the covid issues subside (nobody wants to be quarantined for two weeks Smile.

                             

                            I am getting so cautious lately. Yesterday got some slight difficulty to get into straight position after laying down, reading something and, after some mental struggle, decided to cancel evening run. It was not easy - numbers still rule kind of - was planning on 90+ miles week but, after I also decided to skip today's morning run (some discomfort was still there), it definitely goes out of the window. That's OK, based on my experience - so, will have 2.5 weeks of taper instead of planned 2. But it's really interesting - few years ago I would still go for a run with that kind of issue Smile. Reminds me about my retirement portfolio investments - I placed everything to very conservative funds in 2017. Since then I am watching everything goes up by at least 20-25% and I am getting my 5%. Kind of hurts, but not as much as opposite situation - I lost some considerable amount of money (at least considerable for me and my family) playing options. My heart still sinks every time I think about those occasions. So, not getting  more money hurts, but losing money hurts so much more - tested Smile I guess, that's why I skipped my runs yesterday and today - I might not get the time I want, but at least I should "get" some time Smile.

                            paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile


                            Elite Jogger

                              ...

                               

                               

                              Yeah, sure. What are the candidates - can you list them - as many as you can - I would give my wife a daughter a choice of my goal marathon for the next year. I think you might need some time to train, so, spring or early summer races are probably not good candidates? Plus, hope the covid issues subside (nobody wants to be quarantined for two weeks Smile.

                               

                               

                               

                              Yeah that’s why I said fall...I was trying to be American friendly as I thought that meant the same as autumn in the UK?...September onwards. 👍

                              5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                              CalBears


                                ...

                                Yeah that’s why I said fall...I was trying to be American friendly as I thought that meant the same as autumn in the UK?...September onwards. 👍

                                 

                                Sorry, I missed that "fall" part thing. I understand "autumn" as much as "fall" Smile.

                                 

                                Here is the list of fall marathons this year, I would guess many of them will still be available next year (except some that were moved from spring)?

                                 

                                September 2021

                                 

                                Sep 26 Berlin Marathon Berlin Germany

                                Sep 26 H.C. Andersen Marathon Odense Denmark

                                Sep 26 Madrid Marathon Madrid Spain

                                Sep 26 Moscow Marathon Moscow Russia

                                Sep 26 Warsaw Marathon Warsaw Poland

                                 

                                October 2021

                                 

                                Oct 2 Galway Bay Run Marathon Galway Ireland

                                Oct 2 Helsinki City Marathon Helsinki Finland

                                Oct 2 Ibiza Marathon Ibiza Spain

                                Oct 3 Cologne Marathon Cologne Germany

                                Oct 3 Kosice Marathon Kosice Slovakia

                                Oct 9 Stockholm Marathon Stockholm Sweden

                                Oct 9 Vandra Marathon Vandra Estonia

                                Oct 10 Budapest Marathon Budapest Hungary

                                Oct 10 Eindhoven Marathon Eindhoven Netherlands

                                Oct 10 Graz Marathon Graz Austria

                                Oct 17 Amsterdam Marathon Amsterdam Netherlands

                                Oct 17 Ascona-Locarno Marathon Locarno Switzerland

                                Oct 17 Dresden Marathon Dresden Germany

                                Oct 17 Lisbon Marathon Lisbon Portugal

                                Oct 17 Paris Marathon Paris France

                                Oct 17 Kharkiv International Marathon Kharkiv Ukraine

                                Oct 24 Dublin Marathon - cancelled Dublin Ireland

                                Oct 24 Ljubljana Marathon Ljubljana Slovenia

                                Oct 24 Rotterdam Marathon Rotterdam Netherlands

                                Oct 24 Venice Marathon Venice Italy

                                Oct 30 Polar Circle Marathon - October Kangerlassuaq Greenland

                                Oct 31 Frankfurt Marathon Frankfurt Germany

                                Oct 31 X-ray Marathon Remscheid Germany

                                 

                                November 2021

                                 

                                Nov 7 Barcelona Marathon Barcelona Spain

                                Nov 7 Istanbul Marathon Istanbul Turkey

                                Nov 7 Rursee Marathon Simmerath-Einruhr Germany

                                Nov 14 Athens Marathon Athens Greece

                                Nov 14 Seville Marathon Seville Spain

                                TBC Marathon de Cordoba Cordoba Spain

                                Nov 21 Gran Canaria Marathon Gran Canaria Spain

                                Nov 21 Palermo Marathon Palermo Italy

                                Nov 28 Florence Marathon Florence Italy

                                Nov 28 Limassol Marathon Limassol Cyprus

                                Nov 28 San Sebastian Marathon San Sebastian Spain

                                 

                                December 2021

                                 

                                Dec 5 Cyprus Marathon Pafos Cyprus

                                Dec 5 Marathon Popular de Valencia Valencia Spain

                                Dec 19 Pisa Marathon

                                 

                                 

                                I like few choices (without much thinking Smile

                                 

                                1) Moscow, of course (you know, you can see Red Square Smile !!!

                                2) Ibiza (warm sea! vacation!)

                                3) Polar Circle Marathon in Greenland - I guess we should have great running weather???

                                4) Gran Canaria Spain - an island with an active volcano and warm sea! Vacation!

                                 

                                paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile