2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 387 times)

JMac11


Milkman

     

     

    Jmac/JHud - I’m certain I can work through rough patches that are only mental. Come race day I’ll be feeling like super man most likely.

    I was meaning muscular failure (aka cramps on both quads at the same time so you can barely walk forward, stuff like that). I have not heard if either of you had that before in longer races, but you cannot will yourself out of that.

    If I have that, there’s not much I can do other than DNF and live to fight another day.

    Also by really bad fade I didn’t mean like Jmac’s fading in Boston to a PR. I meant you start walking so slowly that people are passing you while walking. 

     

     

    While I agree with what you're saying, these points of unbearable pain you literally can't run are way less likely than the "I'm in so much pain, let me walk for 2 minutes, then I'll run again." That was what I felt at Boston. I've said it multiple times before, but that fade at the end of that marathon was unlike any pain I've experienced in other races, including all the ones where I've positive split. I'm sure plenty of people who've raced more marathons than me have gone through something similar. That's where you have to go in with the mindset that you will work through any pain that comes your way. Once you put in even a little out clause that you will DNF, it's much easier to justify the vey real pain at the end of a positive split marathon as a reason to DNF or walk, vs. just a few minutes of positive split.

    5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

     

    Next Race: Suffolk County Half (10/24)

    flavio1980


    Intl. correspondent

       

      While I agree with what you're saying, these points of unbearable pain you literally can't run are way less likely than the "I'm in so much pain, let me walk for 2 minutes, then I'll run again." That was what I felt at Boston. I've said it multiple times before, but that fade at the end of that marathon was unlike any pain I've experienced in other races, including all the ones where I've positive split. I'm sure plenty of people who've raced more marathons than me have gone through something similar. That's where you have to go in with the mindset that you will work through any pain that comes your way. Once you put in even a little out clause that you will DNF, it's much easier to justify the vey real pain at the end of a positive split marathon as a reason to DNF or walk, vs. just a few minutes of positive split.

      Yet the point of muscular failure happened to me a few times already, every single marathon and 50k 😊

      It's hard to explain cause you're on the opposite side of the spectrum.

      I guess what you could try is try to do 5000 pull ups in a day. Start at 6am and keep trying to do pull ups non stop during the day. I believe at some point during the day you will be unable to lift your arms, no matter how much you try to will them with your mind.

      And for absolutely no logical reason I'm talking about this now, I'm fairly certain it's not taper madness...

      PRs: 1500 4:51 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

      Up next: Rest and recover

      Tool to generate Strava weekly

      JMac11


      Milkman

        This is why you're the strength king, using 5000 pull ups as an example 

         

        I would change it to doing bicep curls with a 1 pound weight every few seconds. I totally agree there's a physical limit where no matter what, you cannot lift that weight any more without taking a 5 minute break. Let's say that's 5,000 reps. My point is that at some point close to that, it will feel like you cannot lift anymore, but you certainly can. So at 4,500 reps, it may be incredibly painful at that point, but you could physically lift it. Many people will quit at that point and say "I can't do any more, I've reached my physical limit" when in reality they had another 500 reps in them.

         

        That is exactly what happens in the marathon. Someone sets out at 6:40 pace, it starts getting really painful at mile 20 and they slow down to 6:50, then it's 7:10 by mile 23, and they just start walking because they're in so much pain and have convinced themselves they've reached their muscular limit when they have not.

         

        The only time people do reach that limit is when you see them literally collapse a few hundred meters from the finish line where their muscles cannot work anymore. You then see them stand up, they wobble a bit, and hit the floor again.

         

        Basically, If you can walk, you've not achieved that limit. Remember that in your race as you curse me all the way to the finish 

        5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

         

        Next Race: Suffolk County Half (10/24)

        Running Problem


        Problem Child

          You two should read the book Endure if you haven't already. I never finished it, BUT it talks about the limit, and how people can go beyond it even when they think they're maxed out.

          Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

          VDOT 51

          5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

          SteveChCh


          Hot Weather Complainer

            You two should read the book Endure if you haven't already. I never finished it, BUT it talks about the limit, and how people can go beyond it even when they think they're maxed out.

             

            Is this intentional irony??    Brilliant.

            PB:  Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

            Recent Races:    Queenstown Half-Marathon (trail) November 21, 2020 1:35.11 Cherry Blossom Half-Marathon, September 13, 2020 1:33:38 Half-Marathon Time Trial May 31, 2020 1:31.51  

            Race plan:  Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon November 7 (Target: PR), Queenstown Half-Marathon November 20 (Target: Queenstown PR), Christchurch Marathon April 10, 2022 (Target: Sub 3:20 and no cancellation)

            Running Problem


            Problem Child

              Steve HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHA! No it's more just "something came up" and I put the book down for a day, which became a week, and extended to a month. I think I've started it over. Twice. It IS a good book though. If you're into conversations about how the body limits itself and scientific/data analysis stuff. With some running/endurance athlete sport mixed in.

              Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

              VDOT 51

              5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

              Marky_Mark_17


                DW - Best of luck with your string of half races. 

                I see you comment towards Cal but I think more people on this board consider the marathon the Queen of all races and only ever run other races as tune ups with no taper.

                Of course that’s an individual choice but I, like yourself, see all distances as possible targets and will taper even for a 1500 race.

                 

                 

                 

                This is a bit like the Kipchoge vs. Bekele debate, really.

                 

                Kipchoge is probably the greatest marathon runner of all time.  He's got the WR, the only sub-2hr time (not a WR given the controlled conditions, but still a cool science experiment), and back to back Olympic marathon golds.  And that performance in Tokyo - perhaps not the fastest time but he was in absolute control of that race despite tough conditions.

                 

                Bekele, on the other hand, has a truckload of world XC championships, Olympic golds in the 5,000m and 10,000m, and his marathon PB is only 2 seconds behind Kipchoge.  His WR's in the 5 and 10 stood for 15 years or so.  I think he was unbeaten over the 10 for close to 10 years which is frankly ridiculous.  Certainly a better all-around performer than Kipchoge and arguably the greatest distance runner of all time.

                 

                Of course this is the marathon thread so many on here will naturally be inclined towards claiming the marathon is the greatest of all races.  But I'm more in the Flavio school of thought here, and if I could choose to be one of those two athletes, it'd be Bekele (and I say this as someone who thinks Kipchoge is a dead-set legend and one of the true icons of our sport).

                5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20) | 10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) 

                HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)

                * Net downhill course

                Last race: Meridian Hydro Half Marathon (trail), 7 Aug, 1:19:44 (2nd)

                Up next: Omaha Half Marathon, 12 Dec (COVID-permitting)

                "CONSISTENCY IS KING"

                JTReeves


                   

                  This is a bit like the Kipchoge vs. Bekele debate, really.

                   

                  Kipchoge is probably the greatest marathon runner of all time.  He's got the WR, the only sub-2hr time (not a WR given the controlled conditions, but still a cool science experiment), and back to back Olympic marathon golds.  And that performance in Tokyo - perhaps not the fastest time but he was in absolute control of that race despite tough conditions.

                   

                  Bekele, on the other hand, has a truckload of world XC championships, Olympic golds in the 5,000m and 10,000m, and his marathon PB is only 2 seconds behind Kipchoge.  His WR's in the 5 and 10 stood for 15 years or so.  I think he was unbeaten over the 10 for close to 10 years which is frankly ridiculous.  Certainly a better all-around performer than Kipchoge and arguably the greatest distance runner of all time.

                   

                  Of course this is the marathon thread so many on here will naturally be inclined towards claiming the marathon is the greatest of all races.  But I'm more in the Flavio school of thought here, and if I could choose to be one of those two athletes, it'd be Bekele (and I say this as someone who thinks Kipchoge is a dead-set legend and one of the true icons of our sport).

                   

                  Well put Mark, I totally agree. I think Kipchoge's brilliance at the marathon coupled with the superb publicity/marketing apparatus around him have some (like JMac) mistakenly thinking he is the all around GOAT.  Marathon GOAT, no question about it, but the all around goes to Kenny easily. I'd even put Geb in 2nd behind Kenny (he had even greater range the Kenny, with an indoor 1500 WR and the marathon WR among his 27 or so WRs). Arguably Zatopek would also be ahead of Kipchoge for all-around GOAT status.

                  2:52:16 (2018)

                  CalBears


                    DW - Best of luck with your string of half races. 

                    I see you comment towards Cal but I think more people on this board consider the marathon the Queen of all races and only ever run other races as tune ups with no taper.

                    Of course that’s an individual choice but I, like yourself, see all distances as possible targets and will taper even for a 1500 race.

                     

                     

                    Are you sure you know what this thread is about? I mean - the name of the thread? I do not see 1500 in it anywhere. Neither I see HM there too (I like HMs, but this is a marathon thread - so, not sure why you are surprised we are talking marathons here? Smile

                     

                     

                     Cal - I see now you can understand how a 1h22 half does not translate to a sub 3 marathon 😁

                    Re: your comment to Darkwave, when you say 5ks or 10ks are too short, that absolutely means you relish more the longer races. You see I very much love the 1500, I find it wonderful cause I perform best at that distance naturally. We're at almost opposite sides of the spectrum.

                    We tend to take for granted the things that come easy. You have enormous strength and muscle endurance. When others can't perform the same exceptional feats that you perform, it's not always because they have weak minds 😀

                     

                    The only reason your 1:22 (or 1:20?) doesn't translate to sub 3 so far is the mileage and some unstable life style you are having lately (no stones to your side, actually it's totally awesome you are trying to improve your life in any way possible) - but marathon training requires some stability - I am sure as soon as you average around 60 mpw for 12-15 weeks, you have no problem go sub 3 and no doubt even faster (I do not even have 1:20 HM - but yes, you are right - I didn't taper for it - plus do not forget I am little bit older than you - so, less fast twitch Smile

                     

                    Not sure about your statement re things coming easy - if you think it's easy to run 90-100 mpw, then I do not know what you are smoking over there. And I have never accused anybody in having a weak mind - personally, I am not gaining anything if somebody has a weak mind or strong mind Smile - basically, I cannot change anything about other person having weak/strong mind - or you could say I do not care? Smile

                    paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                    JMac11


                    Milkman

                        I think Kipchoge's brilliance at the marathon coupled with the superb publicity/marketing apparatus around him have some (like JMac) mistakenly thinking he is the all around GOAT.  

                       

                      Hey! I'm the only one noticed you're about to miss your marathon and you cheap shot me . But seriously forget this silly debate, what's going on with your race?

                      5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                       

                      Next Race: Suffolk County Half (10/24)

                      Running Problem


                      Problem Child

                         

                        Well put Mark, I totally agree. I think Kipchoge's brilliance at the marathon coupled with the superb publicity/marketing apparatus around him have some (like JMac) mistakenly thinking he is the all around GOAT.  Marathon GOAT, no question about it, but the all around goes to Kenny easily. I'd even put Geb in 2nd behind Kenny (he had even greater range the Kenny, with an indoor 1500 WR and the marathon WR among his 27 or so WRs). Arguably Zatopek would also be ahead of Kipchoge for all-around GOAT status.

                         

                        It’s like arguing if Richard Petty or Jimmy Johnson are better. At the end of the day no one is going to change their mind by being told they’re wrong, and no one really cares because everyday someone ELSE gets better. 

                        Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                        VDOT 51

                        5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

                        JTReeves


                           

                          Hey! I'm the only one noticed you're about to miss your marathon and you cheap shot me . But seriously forget this silly debate, what's going on with your race?

                           

                          I know you know I'm just teasing; I really enjoyed our debate about this. And thanks for noticing my absence. I went to the podiatrist yesterday and they ran an X-ray; good news is no stress fracture or bone spurs. It's just a bad case of tendonitis of the EHL tendon (extensor hallucis longus). It goes from the big toe across the foot and up the front center of the shin. I just need to reduce the inflammation, so icing. elevating when I can, and ibuprofen. Now that I know it's not a stress fracture I'll try running slowly. Hartford is out of the question but maybe I'll be able to do a later race.

                          2:52:16 (2018)

                          flavio1980


                          Intl. correspondent

                            Jmac - I know you mean that I should steer clear of the negative thoughts and for that I'm thankful.

                            I'll be focusing on Austrian desserts instead 😋

                             

                            I'm going to try to detox from tech stuff now, See you all on the other side of the race 💪

                            PRs: 1500 4:51 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

                            Up next: Rest and recover

                            Tool to generate Strava weekly

                              ... that I should steer clear of the negative thoughts...

                               "What, me worry?"  (I just recently "got" your avatar... )

                              darkwave


                              Mother of Cats

                                Jmac - I know you mean that I should steer clear of the negative thoughts and for that I'm thankful.

                                I'll be focusing on Austrian desserts instead 😋

                                 

                                I'm going to try to detox from tech stuff now, See you all on the other side of the race 💪

                                 

                                Good luck!

                                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                                 

                                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.