2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 443 times)

Running Problem


Problem Child

    JMac well I might possible stalk Keen at the downtown bus stop and ride along with him. I can chat his ear off for the first 30 so he can avoid me at all costs and run super fast. With how my Thursday M pace runs have gone I'm getting concerned about 6:50/mi pace. Tuesday runs seem fine to do at a 6:30/mi pace. Thursday, when I have to hang it out there for extended periods of time, seems to be a lot worse for me. I wouldn't want to hold Keen back, and I'm just taking a guess....he will run a 1:29:30 for the first half, and speed up for the final 10k, and even more for the final 5k to get under 2:58. You will be able to cheer him on from the beer tent for the last 600m.

     

    Maurten I like them because, like JMac they didn't give me any stomach issues in 2019. I trained with them a lot, and I'll be using them again for CIM. The cost, well I just don't care. I spent $500+ for a driveshaft for a spare vehicle I plan to use as a toy. I put about $50 worth of fluid into it for just the rear end. as is $4/gallon. So to fuel myself for a race I've trained 3 months for I'm going to go with what works. I see no problem spending $30 for race fuel when I'm willing to spend $260 on shoes. *all prices are in USD unless state otherwise elsewhere*

    Yeah, they're pretty much like Jell-O, and there is a large amount to ingest. It took a while for me to do this, and I somehow dont' have much problem scarfing it down. Perhaps because I'm a fast eater and give myself hiccups from eating frequently. They work. "If it ain't broke, fix it until it is don't fix it."

     

    JHud are you coiming to CIM?

     

    Cal I'll look around for you at the start or bus stops at CIM. I thought you were driving up the day of, but it sounded like you were staying downtown Saturday night.

     

    My Week

    Unintentionally the most miles I've run in a week. It seemed easy to run 13+ miles, and the long run Friday was made up on the fly. A girl I run with on Sundays, who doesn't like hills, talked about this loop but didn't give the specifics. Friday it seemed like a good thing to run just because CIM is hilly, and I aven't been running hills like I did in 2019 so I'm afraid of them destroying my legs. I also thought the novelty of other people seeing Zolezzi AND wedge, in the SAME RUN would blow a few minds. I have been vocal about not liking Zolezzi. Lots of false summits from miles 2-6, then a 2.25 mile downhill where EVERYONE AND THEIR FAMILY want to drop 7:30/mi or faster. UFF DAH!

    Tuesday went well. Again, I was thinking "if this is 10 seconds faster than marathon pace I should be in good shape."

    Thursday...OOOOFFFFFF Mile 7 was all heart and all mental. I wanted to quit. It wasn't easy, I was going too slow for marathon pace, and the heart rate was the absolute maximum I'd want for a marathon. I told myself "you quit last week because it got hard, and you were supposed to learn something. You said today 9-10 miles, and you said Thursday workouts are the ones that build confidence so you HAVE to make it 9 miles." I had to slow down, possibly due to 61F temps and possibly due to not being in shape, to make it through and when the final miles of the workout was finished so was I. I didn't have a 10th mile in me. Overall the PACES were fine. It's just the physical feeling of absolute exhaustion at the end of the workout I wasn't expecting, and when I think about doing 10 miles I get a little concerned about how it will go, which snowballs into "well how are you going to do it on race day if you can't do it here?"

     

     

    Also, I have an Australian visiting a relative in the area so I'm asking her all about things. She said our bread tastes like cake because of the amount of sugar in it. I told her she should take a loaf home to share with others because apparently there isn't sugar in bread down under.  She also told me they call McDonalds "mackers" and a slide is known as a "slippery dip." It's fun learning new words.

     

     

    Weekly for period: From: 10/25/2021 To 10/31/2021

    Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
    in ft
    10/25 Walk in unwelcomed. 2.87 4.62 01:02:27 21:46 13:31 46
    10/26 That time it started as a sketch in my notebook. 13.24 21.30 01:41:44 07:41 04:47 207
    10/26 Building plastic decks 0.00 0.00 00:30:37 00:00 00:00 0
    10/27 That time I wasn’t joking about 7:30/mi being easy pace. 8.37 13.47 01:03:34 07:36 04:43 374
    10/28 That time I actually had to simulate race day as much as possible. 14.26 22.94 01:48:29 07:36 04:44 180
    10/29 That time I Wedge’d Zolezzi. 14.12 22.72 01:55:47 08:12 05:06 1033
    10/30 That time I learned how to Cul de SUCK a through street. 12.19 19.61 01:41:25 08:19 05:10 102
    10/31 That time I had to hurry up and figure out pace. 4.39 7.06 00:33:56 07:44 04:48 39
    10/31 That time I got back into pacing. 6.11 9.84 00:45:14 07:24 04:36 210
    10/31 That time I ran past an old friend. 1.15 1.86 00:09:23 08:10 05:03 13

    Total distance: 76.70mi

    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

    VDOT 54.9

    5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

    JMac11


    Milkman

      RP - I'm not surprised you're feeling the way you are. You ramped up mileage a bit later, so you're in that zombie phase of marathon training. I think it's all going to click for you once the taper starts.

       

      I agree on Keen here. Anything 1:29 is a perfect start, maybe even 1:28 given the course profile. I do think, as Keen pointed out in his week, some of it may be just holding a higher effort for him. That's when you really need a strong group to run with!

       

      What was 2019 CIM like? Is there a huge group of people saying they're trying to go sub 3? I got to latch on to the women's OTQ group for a good chunk of the second half of the race and it was lifesaving for me. I would not have run the time I did without using them to my advantage.

       

      Keen - what does the taper down from all these 100 mile weeks look like? I feel like it's different than us plebeians

      5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

       

      Next Race: Unknown 

      SteveChCh


      Hot Weather Complainer

        RP - I've noticed the same regarding many dog owners. The first words out of the mouths of those who owned the dogs I've been bit by were both "My dog would never bite anyone!". The blood coming down my legs begged otherwise.

         

        Grrr, I've been chased sooo many times this year.  Usually in the domain/reserve/park but also walking past building sites with dogs not on a leash who lunge at people walking past.  A crazy tiny dog on a long leash at the domain lunged at me but only managed to bite my track pants thankfully.  I generally avoid the domain now unless it's a recovery run to just avoid the issue.  A few months ago while being chased I managed to swing my leg perfectly and connected with the head...hopefully lesson learned.

        PB:  Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

        Recent Races:    Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

        Race plan:  Christchurch Marathon April 10, 2022 (Target: Sub 3:20).  Southern Lakes Half Marathon May 7, 2022 (backup race if the cancellation curse continues)

        Running Problem


        Problem Child

          JMac 2019 CIM was magical. I don't think it can every be replicated, duplicated, or emulated. It is what makes it so magical. When I was training for 2019 I was in the office every day and my 6-8 mile runs just had more elevation change. Now it's just pancake flat 7 mile easy runs. I try to convince myself you, cal, and keen do a lot, or all, of your training on flats so I'll be just fine with what I'm doing at 4,500 ft elevation. It's just in my head at some point I was doing more rolling hills during training for 2019, and since working from home I've done a TON more flat paved multiuse path runs.

          I'm actually curious to know if CIM will have pacing groups this year. I mean, honestly, if they can't have a bag drop due to covid 19 how can they justify encouraging people to run together for 3-4 (or 5) hours on the same day?  You will have to report on how large the OTQ group is. I'm expecting it to be smaller just because the Olympics are so far away so it isn't a LCQ type marathon for some.

           

          Steve I've keep forgetting to ask....is there a reason your warm ups are ONLY 0.28 miles (4-500m) It looks like a convenient start/stop point from the non-sattelite image on Strava. I just wondered.

           

           

          such a busy (non-work related) day. I think I will go for a run to recover from all this running around. Oh my knee pain/twinge didn't bother me this week so that was good. It might have for a short moment one day, but overall it seems to be gone.

          Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

          VDOT 54.9

          5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

          SteveChCh


          Hot Weather Complainer

             

             Steve I've keep forgetting to ask....is there a reason your warm ups are ONLY 0.28 miles (4-500m) It looks like a convenient start/stop point from the non-sattelite image on Strava. I just wondered.

             

            Yeah it's just a lap around the block.  I only added them in 2 years ago after a glute issue at the request of the physio (then added them to Strava at the request of piwi).  I usually start my runs slow so it may not be all that necessary, especially in warm weather.

            PB:  Christchurch 2016 1:29.25

            Recent Races:    Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32  November 7, 2021

            Race plan:  Christchurch Marathon April 10, 2022 (Target: Sub 3:20).  Southern Lakes Half Marathon May 7, 2022 (backup race if the cancellation curse continues)

            CommanderKeen


            Aspiring Hobby Jogger

              RP - Looking forward to insights and new words from your visiting Australian.


              JMac - I don't have the final schedule yet (just the rough weekly total/outline from the very beginning of the cycle), but it looks like 95-105>85-95>60-75>42-51 (not including race). Plenty of variation based on how I'm feeling.


              Steve - I've been fortunate in that I've had very minimal dog contact since moving to where I currently live 4-ish years ago. It's a nice, unanticipated bonus of running in a rather rural area.

              5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:24:16 11/19 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

               

              Upcoming Races:

               

              Rose Rock Trail Run (20k) - 1/29

              Wurst Race Half - 10/8

              Running Problem


              Problem Child

                keen 50 miles the week of a race without including the race? wow. I guess I expected a lot, and oddly I was thinking "I bet he does 50 the week of CIM" on my run today. Not "in addition to CIM" but total.

                Anything in particular you'd like to know? They apparently sell LPG at the petrol station, call it "gas" and it's super cheap. Oh and their octane rating for low grad is something like 91 I think. Perhaps NZ has comparable insight. I think marby could confirm/deny it.

                Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                VDOT 54.9

                5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                JMac11


                Milkman

                  Keen - I agree with RP's "wow", that's a lot of miles the week of the race! Everything else looks pretty standard to me, but it's nice with the "how are you feeling" part to it.

                   

                  RP - good question on pacers. They actually haven't announced the OTQ standards, so I wonder what it will look like at CIM. I doubt they're going to change the men's standard too much, but it does feel like the women's B standard may get tighter. But who knows what their real goal is. I know darkwave is only posting weekly at this point but she may have better insights into this.

                   

                  Either way, without known standards, I don't know whether any real pacing groups are getting set up like they had in 2019 when everyone was scrambling to get their last opportunity in before Atlanta 2020 (which is an absurd turnaround, but for most people, just getting to the starting line is huge accomplishment and the time at the qualifying event doesn't matter)

                  5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                   

                  Next Race: Unknown 

                  dpschumacher


                  37 going on 60

                    The posted the WA Championship section rules after 60% of the applicable races were already run.... so do not underestimate USATF to set new reasonable standards but late enough to screw the maximum amount of potential qualifiers with the least amount of notice possible.

                     

                    2021 Goals for my 2 marathon cycles this year

                    Marathon Sub 2:40 2:39:27 Grandma's Marathon 6/19/21

                    10k Sub 35:00 in Marathon build

                    5k Sub 16:30 in Marathon build /16:34 BK5K Memorial Day 2021

                     

                    2022 Goals

                    Marathon Sub 2:37 

                    10k Sub 35:00

                    5k Sub 16:00

                    JMac11


                    Milkman

                      The posted the WA Championship section rules after 60% of the applicable races were already run.... so do not underestimate USATF to set new reasonable standards but late enough to screw the maximum amount of potential qualifiers with the least amount of notice possible.

                       

                      This sounds...exactly right.

                      5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                       

                      Next Race: Unknown 

                      Marby


                        Jhud: I’m excited for you, there’s nothing like race week.

                         

                        Jmac:  Good sign to get that Thu workout done and then wow, great long run.

                         

                        Keen: Very nice that you could get ‘the big one’ done feeling like you could have gone harder.  Just ‘cause you could have doesn’t mean you should have, give yourself a big tick. You must be looking forward to a down week of 95…

                         

                        RP: Thu not being what you hoped for doesn’t seem like a big deal in the scheme of things.  Tue was really good and the week had all the variety to move you in the right direction.

                         

                        Petrol (regular unleaded) is 91 octane and bloody expensive at the moment, 1.80 AUD per litre which I think converts to 5 USD per gallon.  I did a big road trip back in 94/95 and remember thinking how cheap fuel was, it was just over a dollar per gallon back then. Yes, LPG is known as gas and is half the price of petrol.

                        Anyone with a surname starting with Mc or Mac ends up getting called Macca at some point in their life, so why would McDonalds be treated any differently.  10 years ago they adopted it, trademarked it and advertise the crap out of it.  I do not have the mymaccas app installed.

                         

                        Macca's sign

                         

                        In other strange Aussie goings on – today we have a public holiday in honour of a horse race.  We also had one back in September for the football grand final.  I’ll take it, last week was a fair bit to adjust to.  I went back to work in the office and the kids went back to the classroom. Oh, and my brother got the virus, he's okay but there was some stuff to deal with.

                        Of the 10 trips to and from I walked 7 of them and ran 3, it was good to be able to do that.

                        I took a wrong turn on my long run and ended up running 3mi longer than intended. Then had a 2 hour/6k treating walk in the afternoon!

                         

                        Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                        in ft
                        10/25 Afternoon Run 4.99 8.03 00:41:43 08:22 05:12 269
                        10/26 5x7min 7.88 12.68 00:56:29 07:10 04:27 151
                        10/27 Afternoon Run 8.38 13.48 01:08:03 08:07 05:03 364
                        10/28 3k Tempo & 6x400m 6.65 10.70 00:51:53 07:48 04:51 177
                        10/29 Evening Run 7.47 12.02 01:02:13 08:20 05:11 322
                        10/30 Lunch Run 7.87 12.67 01:06:00 08:23 05:13 322
                        10/31 Woodlands-Wildwood Loop 23.51 37.83 03:07:51 07:59 04:58 1296

                        Total distance: 66.75mi

                        Half 1:26:41 (2016), Marathon 2:59:83 (2021)

                        CalBears


                          .

                          I'm actually curious to know if CIM will have pacing groups this year. I mean, honestly, if they can't have a bag drop due to covid 19 how can they justify encouraging people to run together for 3-4 (or 5) hours on the same day?  You will have to report on how large the OTQ group is. I'm expecting it to be smaller just because the Olympics are so far away so it isn't a LCQ type marathon for some.

                           

                          CIM will have pacer groups as usual - starting from 3:00 and then a group for every 5 minutes slower (3:05, 3:10, 3:15, etc...) -

                          https://runsra.org/california-international-marathon/pace-team/

                           

                          They also accepting applications for OTQ trials for 2021 race - women should have a marathon faster than 2:41 to apply and men - faster than 2:18 - those are automatically accepted. There is a wait list for women ran faster than 2:49 and men - faster than 2:26. They don't know the OTQ time yet though Smile

                          https://runsra.org/california-international-marathon/awards-elite/

                          paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                          CalBears


                            dw - I think, it's right decision not to run Indy if you don't feel excited about it. Great to see you continue running but hope you find the origin of the problem, so we would get our regular optimistic dw back Smile

                             

                            JMac - great week, very impressive - especially that Thursday's workout and the long run - you are killing it.

                             

                            jhudak - almost there! Hope you are excited about the race - you have a great chance to go sub 3 - just don't try to get to greedy - I would be pretty conservative first couple of miles - 5-10 seconds slower than your target pace (6:48-6:50) - I would strongly advise against of going faster than target pace - in my experience all the great races for me started at target pace of a little slower - if you feel great at those paces for first two miles, it would be a great sign. I also think that 29oF (which could change) is a great starting point - nothing wrong with that. I remember one of the CIM starts was at 23oF, no snow, no wind and it was great!

                             

                            RP - I maybe mistaken but it seems to me that your current training is less than what you had for 2019 - there were few uninterrupted cycles back then. But you have a great psychological advantage - you already ran sub 3 - in my experience it worth something.

                             

                            Keen - man... your training is really awesome - you should be running low 2:50s by now - I hope you will break that sub 3 barrier and will go from there in the right direction. It's interesting that your mileage plan for the last few weeks is almost identical to my weekly miles before my PR race in 2015 - back then my last 5 weeks were: 105, 85, 85, 76, 46 (72 with marathon).

                             

                            Marby - solid week.

                             

                            It's funny to read how you guys automatically put me into sub 3 racers group - my last two races made me appreciate sub 3 much more than before. I do not know what is happening but I honestly didn't consider running sub 3 as a big deal. But last two races... I put 100% effort in both races and was not able to achieve sub 3. One of the reasons trough, I think is that I run like 25-30 miles per week less than I used to run all those "easy sub 3 years". Maybe that is the reason. It's interesting that I run more workouts this cycle, but it doesn't pay off. Maybe my "comfort" territory is higher mileage with maybe one workout per week? I will try to plan higher mileage next cycle.

                             

                            My week was fine - even ran more than I thought I will, but nothing crazy. Also the Tuesday workout (3x2) was pretty decent with most of the miles under 6:15. Also ran "workout" up/down to Mt. Diablo (3500+ ft) - as I expected, I feel much much better than after my first run to the Mt., but quads are still heavy - you just can't have no consequences after 11 miles straight downhill (all miles in the range of 150-400 feet down)

                             

                            Mo - 8.20 @7:46

                            Tu - 8:53 @7:06 (with 3x2 @6:10, 6:17, 6:09)

                            We - 11.15 @7:45

                            Th - 11.17 @9:07

                            Fr - 11.02 @7:47 with 6 @~MP effort - 6:50 avg pace

                            Sa - 7:07 @9:18

                            Su - 18.12 @9:04 (up - trail, down - road)

                            ===

                            Total: 75.2 miles

                            paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                            CommanderKeen


                            Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                              Marby - I'm definitely looking forward to "only" 90-ish miles this week. Having a mere 19 miles across two runs so far this week is quite the treat!
                              Those are some insane prices for petrol! I have it pretty good where I'm at and we're "only" paying $3/gal (pure gas, not the 10% ethanol junk) - ~$1.06 AUS/litre. And this is ~2/3 more than we were paying 10 months ago.
                              LPG is available here, but very rare for vehicles outside of some farm uses. Compressed natural gas is seen more frequently, but still not common.

                              Also, nice week.


                              Cal - Thanks. I certain hope I break that barrier as well, otherwise I think I'll have to conclude that I just have the world's worst conversion from speed to endurance.
                              Good week, and I'm seriously jealous of your ability to get that kind of elevation gain/loss in a single run. That trip up/down Mt. Diablo is my WEEKLY gain/loss!

                              5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:24:16 11/19 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                               

                              Upcoming Races:

                               

                              Rose Rock Trail Run (20k) - 1/29

                              Wurst Race Half - 10/8

                              JMac11


                              Milkman

                                Marby - I guess you're going to have start calling me Maca. That's a pretty hilarious sign.

                                 

                                My question for the Aussie's: what percentage of people ever travel inland? I realize it's a complete wasteland, but is it a journey Australians feel they must make once in their life, or does nobody care?

                                 

                                Keen - It's so funny you call 10% ethanol "junk." I don't think I've even been in a state with 0% ethanol (apparently 10% ethanol makes up 95% of all gas sold in the US). When I drove from NY to CO this past winter, it was fun to track how much the ethanol percentage went up as I approached and departed Iowa. There were gas stations with 70% ethanol. I don't even understand how that works.

                                 

                                Cal - my position for you on sub 3 is just that CIM is your magic home course. I do think there is no replacement for MPW, but you are putting up pretty decent mileage. I feel like you and RP can probably come into CIM with just a 2 week taper though instead of the usual 3 week, whereas Keen almost has a 4 week taper with the mileage he is putting up (like your example).

                                 

                                Also as keen said, your runs up Mt Diablo have been very impressive.

                                5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                                 

                                Next Race: Unknown