2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 423 times)

jhudak55


    Race: Indianapolis Monumental Marathon

    When: November 6, 2021

    Time: 2:59:45

     

    Training

    For this marathon build I planned to follow Pfitzinger’s 18/70 with some added short easy runs where he calls for rest days. Training was perfect through 7 weeks, no missed runs or workouts. However, when mileage got to 70 things started to pop up and became inconsistent week to week. There were two separate times where I took four consecutive days off in an attempt to get through what was probably the start of an injury. Overall, I averaged just over 55 miles a week leading into the taper.

     

    Pre Race

    I flew into Indy on Friday morning for the Saturday race. From the airport I took a bus which dropped me off downtown right out front of the expo. I grabbed my last big meal prior to the race, then went and picked up my packet. It was really nice to be around a bunch of other runners for the first time in 20 months. Expo was easy, I was in and out in under 15 minutes. For the rest of the afternoon I just hung out in my room anticipating the race.

     

    Race Day

    I woke up at 5 AM for the 8 AM race. I immediately ate breakfast, drank my homemade version of LMNT and drank coffee. I had laid out my race kit and nutrition the night before, so I was dressed and ready to go well ahead of time. I did my pre workout active streching in the room and headed down to the lobby at 7:15. The lobby was full of runners keeping warm before heading out to their corrals. I paced around for about twenty minutes then jogged about three minutes to the start.

     

    The weather was perfect, 31 F, with no wind. Standing in the middle of the corral with shorts, singlet, arm warmers, ear warmer headband and gloves was exactly right for the conditions. I found the 3:00 pacer and asked if he planned on running even splits. I was planning to run my own race regardless, but thought it would be nice to run with the group if he planned on even splitting. The pacer confirmed that was the plan, so I lined up a couple of people behind him. Ten minutes prior to the start I took a gel with a sip of water from a bottle I had brought down with me.

     

    After the National Anthem and a few brief pre race announcements we were off. The start was very crowded and slow, but kept me from running a quick opening mile, so I didn't mind. I went through the first mile in 7:10 feeling great. There were two issues with the large pack. It was very difficult to see what was coming on the road 5-10 feet ahead. For the first 2 miles I found myself staring at the ground to avoid manhole covers, potholes and patchwork. Second, the course went from two or three lanes to a single lane under a bridge because the road hadn't been completely closed off near the start of mile two. This caused everyone to briefly slow to a walk while everyone merged together.

     

    The congestion eased up a bit after mile two and I was able to run comfortably without having to watch too closely. Miles 3 to 15 (6:42, 6:38, 6:39, 6:41, 6:42, 6:45, 6:44, 6:42, 6:42, 6:44, 6:47, 6:44, 6:50) I was running comfortably faster than goal pace. The effort felt way too easy for the pace. I often checked lap pace and had to slow down, reminding myself that I should not be banking time. Looking back and knowing I ran a positive split I still don't think that I would change the way I ran this portion of the race. The effort was right where it should be. I took gels at 4.5, 8.5 and 12. Despite running a good bit faster than 3:00 pace the pace group was ahead of me this entire time (I actually never passed the pacer the entire race).

     

    Mile 16 (7:00) was the first time I had to push a bit to keep on pace. I took another gel around 15.5 while going uphill so this split was slower, but had the right effort. At this point I was thinking only ten miles to go and started doing mental math about what I could run if I kept on my original goal pace. 17 to 21 (6:49, 6:52, 6:50, 6:48, 6:51) was more of the same, putting out a controlled effort that I would compare to mile two or three of a tempo. I took my fifth gel at 18.5.

     

    The last five miles (6:59, 7:00, 7:00, 7:01, 6:56) were a battle. At this point everyone was strung out and no longer running in a group. I lost sight of the three hour pace group somewhere early in this segment. Around 21.5 I took my last gel. The get wasn't too hard to get down, but I must have begun to flail a bit because I had a really hard time drinking to wash it down. Aerobically I still felt good, however my legs were starting to really hurt. My hamstrings started to progressively tighten and I felt that I could have run a bit faster, but was worried about a major cramp and having to walk. Looking back, I am wondering if this was just a deal I made with myself to avoid running more 6:50s. Its really hard to look at this in hindsight and say what the ideal option was. In the last 5k I was fairly certain that I had sub 3 as long as I didn't cramp up.

     

    The final turn was somewhere close to the mile 26 marker. In the last 0.2 (or 0.32 by Garmin) I averaged 7:08 (2:19). I'm not sure if this is a GPS error or I really didn't have anything left because I really picked up the pace to what felt like a finishing kick. I crossed the finish line and saw 2:XX:XX on my watch, which was more of a relief than anything. It didn't really sink in for a couple of hours when I got my net time sorted out in the timing tent. When the timing guy confirmed that my net time really was 2:59:45 I was estatic and gave the guy a hug. (On the app my net time originally was listed at 3:00:14 because my time to cross the start (29 seconds) was not calculated in).

     

    This race left me with a ton of excitement/enthusium/motivation for what I can do going forward. I'm pretty sure I want to target another marathon as my next goal race. Also, I recently bought a copy of Daniels Running Formula which I started getting into during my flight home. Up until now I have followed Advanced Marathoning, I think Daniels might be a good change of pace for whatever I decide on next.

    CommanderKeen


    Aspiring Hobby Jogger

      JMac - I'm pulling for a "miraculously gets better with running" result! I hate hearing that it doesn't seem to be improving (but that's at least better than not getting worse). Looking forward to an uneventful run from you later today.

      Bummer on your friend getting a shoddy pacer. I've run in to that both times I've been in a race with pacers with the goal I was looking for.
      Thanks! I'll likely be around 100 miles this week, sitting at 70 miles the morning of the race. That's slightly more than for the last 10k I raced, but the weather should be much better (and it's a certified course!). I do plan on going out and running it as hard as I can, so it should be good for gauging "I should be able to run at least this fast" even if not "This is the fastest I could possibly cover CIM".
      Oy, while I'm not convinced that I could hit those qualifying times, I also don't think they're out of the realm of possibility for me...


      DWave - It's possible they've forgotten about it. My sprinkler system (that I never use as water is too expensive here to waste on my lawn) lets me set a broader schedule like "don't go on between October and April" in addition to just daily stuff. Some people just like a green lawn for as long as they can get it.


      Mikkey - Officially, 3,500 miles was the target for the year (I'm at 3,402 now, lol). With taper/reverse taper 4,000 is probably out of reach, but not by much. 4k might be a good goal for next year, though.


      JHud - Great RR, and congrats yet again.

      5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:24:16 11/19 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

       

      Upcoming Races:

       

      12/4 - Tucson Marathon?

      12/5 - California International Marathon

      jhudak55


        I appreciate all of the support. Legs are feeling a lot better this morning, I'm thinking all of the soreness will be gone within the next two days. I have some travel coming up, so I'm planning on taking it easy until Thanksgiving, then getting back at it.

         

        Keen: Thanks. Good luck on the 10k!

         

        DW: Thank you. Good luck at the doctors appointment today. Hopefully they can figure something out.

         

        JMac: Thanks. How did the run actually feel yesterday?

         

        Mikkey: Thank you. 51 miles in only three runs last week is great. How are you feeling about Valencia?

        Running Problem


        Problem Child

          JMac gotcha. Now I need to find certified half marathon courses. Probably mostly California since it’s the greatest state in the nation. I run Suburbia so much big towering buildings with grid structure streets would be awesome. A friend is running every street in his zip code here and is sick of Cul de sac.

          also, ‘checkers or wreckers’ doesn’t apply to a legitimate injury. I know you’re big on training through things, and I’ve benefited from this many times. Just don’t mistake stupidly for logic. Hope your run today goes well, and if 2:36 is your lifetime PR for the marathon it’s great because the race was so awesome. I’ll miss seeing you at the finish if you don’t get there. Just don’t ‘checkers or wreckers’ an injury you could make worse. Burn the barn down in December not November.

          Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

          VDOT 51

          5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

          JMac11


          Milkman

            Up until now I have followed Advanced Marathoning, I think Daniels might be a good change of pace for whatever I decide on next.

             

            The best part of your race report. Welcome to the Dark Side my friend 

             

            Keen - You can definitely get that half marathon time at some point. Regarding the 10K, I generally do a very mini-taper into them. Hopefully you're at least not running any workouts past today. Otherwise it'll be hard to judge what this time means for CIM.

             

            RP - checkers or wreckers does apply when I'm at a critical point in training. If I took another week off and got 100% healthy, I could get to the start line, but I'd be closer to 2:45 shape. As much as I enjoy the race, I'd rather save the time and money. CIM for me is a pure PR experience, which is why I loved it: really strong runners, great weather, ultimate cheater course, etc. I'd rather go for broke here this week and if I'm really injured, shut it down and regroup for NYC 22.

             

            Run did hurt yesterday. I went to my old sport doc, he was worried about a stress fracture and ordered imaging and refused to do any other treatment until I get the images back. That's going to take 2 weeks and he said no running, so that's a non-starter. Reminded me of the Podiatrist who said I had a sfx right before NYC 17. I don't really know how that's possible, so I sort of just ignored him (and also decided I won't be going back to him). It would have to be a fracture in the top of my leg, which is so rare in general in runners, especially men. Plus, my runs do not get progressively worse with pain as I keep going, which is usually a key sign of a sfx. I'll be laughing at this if it does end up as one, but I'll probably know within a few days if that's a possibility, at which point I'll go in for the imaging.

             

            In the meantime, I've tried a completely different taping methodology, because the one I have now is doing absolutely nothing, which is the first time I can say that for taping.

            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

             

            Next Race: Unknown 

            Running Problem


            Problem Child

               

              I'd rather go for broke here this week and if I'm really injured, shut it down and regroup for NYC 22.

              but I won't BE at NYC 2022...

               

              Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

              VDOT 51

              5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

              JMac11


              Milkman

                Well if I took a week off, I wasn't PR'ing, which meant no free beers anyway!

                5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                 

                Next Race: Unknown 

                Running Problem


                Problem Child

                  Well if I took a week off, I wasn't PR'ing, which meant no free beers anyway!

                   

                  I'd bet you a beer you could PR CIM this year even with a week off.

                  Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                  VDOT 51

                  5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

                  CommanderKeen


                  Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                    JMac - I may have a light workout tomorrow, but probably nothing so large as to make an appreciable difference in performance during the 10k.
                    Anxiously awaiting the results of your run later today.


                    My youngest has come down with a bug - just a general tiredness/not feeling well and a wet cough. No one else in the family is showing any symptoms, but I can't help notice that my HR-for-pace has been a little worse than usual the past several days... Since I have 3 races in the next 26 days this would obviously be the best time for me to harken back to a few years ago when I managed to ALWAYS get sick immediately before a race. Blasted tiny humans and their germs...

                    5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:24:16 11/19 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                     

                    Upcoming Races:

                     

                    12/4 - Tucson Marathon?

                    12/5 - California International Marathon

                    Running Problem


                    Problem Child

                      Keen you better get around that girl as much as possible. Trying to avoid her hasn’t ever worked in your favor. Historically if you try to avoid her you’re impacted on race day.

                      Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                      VDOT 51

                      5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

                      OMR


                        JMac:  I don't remember the specifics of your injury, but have they ruled out your pelvis being out of alignment?  I had that several years ago (don't remember if it was tilted or rotated at this point), and things just wouldn't get better.  A sports doc took xrays and ruled out a fracture, etc., and then sent me to a physical therapist.  The PT quickly diagnosed the misalignment and treated it, and I think I was back to running within a few days, plus one follow-up appointment and some exercises to work on to keep things aligned in the future.

                        CalBears


                          jhudak - once again - congrats on your race and sub 3 and PR! I know that feels great when hard work converts to the result you were working for. So glad you went with the slow 1st mile - all my best races started from slow miles - I just forgetting about that and have not so great races as a result. Hope you like Daniels plan - I hated it honestly - just didn't work for me - me never touch that stuff again Smile

                           

                          Marby - awesome TT - just awesome. Wish they had races opened for you guys - I am pretty sure you are there for sub 3 - just do not forget to run your first mile slow Smile

                           

                          Mikkey - 22 miles? You are crazy! And man - I remembered we were talking about running Boston - that's US, not Europe - now you are making it look like I have to go to Europe to compete with you - all because you have some issues with vaccination? So, New York also doesn't work for you suddenly? Come on man - you are not making children at your age, right? So, what is the things you are disagreeing / afraid of? I have 0 chances to get to London through lottery. Berlin might happen, but you said you won't be able to qualify. So, do we have to run some low key Brighton races? Come on!

                           

                          Btw, I totally disappointed in the magic of those shoes - there is none, imho. I don't think there is a difference in these magic shoes and Adizero 2 or NB 1400 v2 - those were really magic shoes in addition to all the magical training I had at the time.

                           

                          JTR - man, you have to figure out the issue with your injury. There is nothing worse than interrupting a great training cycle because of some issues with your own body which you cannot figure out.

                           

                          DW - yeah, I know, I know - yours has nothing to do with just a body - it's something more complicated and seems like to be only fixed with a medication. I am in awe with your persistence and dedication - I am honestly not sure if I could do what you are doing. No need to repeat I really hope they / you figure it out.

                           

                          JMac - I am sorry you seems to have a critical issue too - do you think you overdid training at some point? Though, I understand it's not clear what the issue is at this point. Still hope to see you at Folsom.

                           

                          Keen - I agree with RP - it's better get sick right now (if it's inevitable) than 4-5 weeks later. Your mileage and training is something I only

                          remember from old good RWOL times - you definitely deserve your goal to be achieved - probably more than any of us here.

                           

                          RP - keep digging man. You are the dark horse of this group - you might surprise all of us and yourself all at the same time!

                           

                          My last week was ok. I am thinking about applying for New York and Berlin next year. Maybe Chicago. They all look so tempting. And of course, CIM.

                           

                          Mo - off

                          Tu - 8.38 @7:33 with 8x1000 200 jog - paces from 6:00 to 6:10 on average.

                          We - 8.21 @8:02

                          Th - 8.20 @8:36

                          Fr - 8.54 @8:50

                          Sa - 10.24 @7:31 with 4~mp effort and 2 @hmp effort (hmp effort was at a slower pace Sad

                          Su - off

                          ===

                          Total: 43.5 miles

                           

                          Something I understood this week - I have no idea what to target for my marathon pace, and there is no time to figure it out. Maybe starting at sub 3 pace would be a good idea and just go from there till mile 16-18?

                          paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                          JMac11


                          Milkman

                             

                             

                            Mikkey - 22 miles? You are crazy! And man - I remembered we were talking about running Boston - that's US, not Europe - now you are making it look like I have to go to Europe to compete with you - all because you have some issues with vaccination?

                             

                            What if London ends up requiring vaccines due to some new outbreak? What will Mikkey do???

                             

                            OMR - it's some weird hip injury that I think is the sartorius muscle but can't fully diagnose as I'm getting pain in a lot of different ways. It's a good idea to see a PT. The ones I saw recently was more of a place though that does strengthening work. I need to find someone nearby who does more manual work / things I can't do at home. I'm away this weekend but maybe I'll schedule something for early next week. Thanks for the advice.

                             

                            Cal - you have to go for 2:59:XX. It's the same thing with RP and Keen. What's the point of showing up to CIM to run a 3:04? It's not like the course is some scenic course with amazing crowds where you can just run something slower and really enjoy it. I would do that at Boston, NYC, London, Tokyo, etc. Not CIM. You go there to run a fast time. It's 2:5X or bust for all 3 of you.

                             

                            My run yesterday had some encouraging signs that it's not a stress fracture as it felt much better towards the end of my run and 1 mile at MP was actually the least painful of any mile I've run in almost 2 weeks. I don't know of many stress reactions / fractures that feel better as the run goes on, or feel better the faster you go. It does feel pretty sore today compared to yesterday morning, so today will be another test.

                             

                            I also ended up buying a Theragun to upgrade from my older, knock of massage gun. Wow that thing is powerful! Trying anything to get this thing to calm down.

                             

                            Will keep trucking along unless it's clear that it is getting worse with running. But it's still at a level that at any other point in the year, I wouldn't be running. Great timing!

                            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                             

                            Next Race: Unknown 

                            CalBears


                               Cal - you have to go for 2:59:XX. It's the same thing with RP and Keen. What's the point of showing up to CIM to run a 3:04? It's not like the course is some scenic course with amazing crowds where you can just run something slower and really enjoy it. I would do that at Boston, NYC, London, Tokyo, etc. Not CIM. You go there to run a fast time. It's 2:5X or bust for all 3 of you.

                               

                               

                              Yeah, I guess people cannot read other people's minds Smile Shocking...

                               

                              What I actually meant is - I want to go faster than sub 3, my workouts show I kind of ready for a faster marathon, but looks like my mileage this year is not supporting steady fast effort for the whole 26.2. To be honest, I was targeting 6:35-6:40 pace in Boston and ended up with 3:03. That's why I was thinking loud that maybe I should not go for a faster time and just make sure I get to sub 3 back again first and maybe only then thinking about something different.

                              paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                              JMac11


                              Milkman

                                Ah gotcha! Your workouts do look like high 2:5X. I guess the question is: if you ran a 2:58 with a negative split, knowing you could have gone possibly 2:56, will you be happy with that? Or would you rather go for 2:56 out of the gate with the risk of another 3:0X?

                                 

                                I would target something like 6:40-6:45. Gives you a little cushion under 3, is a bit slower than Boston, but allows you to speed up for a 2:56ish time if needed (figuring that is GPS time, not actual course clock time). It looks like in Boston you knew by mile 10 that sub 3 wasn't happening. Given you just raced, you'll have a great internal clock telling you whether 6:40-6:45 is right at that point or not. I actually think that CIM is perfect checkpoint when you make that turn right after the half marathon mark.

                                5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                                 

                                Next Race: Unknown