2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 423 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

     

     

    ETA: Slow Wednesday at the office, this thread is flying! DW - can you get on a waiting list? I imagine people cancel these things fairly frequently 24 hours in advance since there is such a long lead time to them that some conditions clear up before you need the test. I'd also check for the day before Thanksgiving again, their calendar was 100% full and then the day before Thanksgiving she said "you can basically come in whenever you want". Probably the day after too if the office is open.

     

    I am on the waiting list.  I think the issues in my case are: a) I'm actually getting three MRIs in a row (brain, cervical spine, thoracic spine) and b) I'm getting them all with and without contrast, meaning they do them all, pull me out, inject me with stuff, and then do a second set.

     

    So all of that takes time, which means I probably take up 2+ appointment slots, and so it took longer to get in.

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

    JTReeves


      Cal: I would like to run CIM at some point; actually if my injury would have healed more quickly it was a real option for this year but I just couldn't be ready. I only worry, once I run that my PR will most likely be from it, and based on people's experience here, it will remain my PR! Then Mikkey will never forgive me for my betrayal.  Think about all the folks who have their PR from CIM: you, JMac, RP, Darkwave, Nimmals, Swim, and, soon to be, Keen. And most ran other marathons besides CIM, but that remained the PR. So if I run it, but I'm on track for a PR, I'll have to slow down and just miss so my PR remains from a non-net downhill course. 

       

      All joking aside, I totally respect a PR from CIM, just like from Boston. I just would like to get the first (if I ever get any) sub 2:50 from a flat course; just a personal goal I set for myself.

      2:52:16 (2018)

      JMac11


      Milkman

         So if I run it, but I'm on track for a PR, I'll have to slow down and just miss so my PR remains from a non-net downhill course. 

         

         

         

        According to findmymarathon, the Hartford course in fact is a net downhill course. Elevation gain of 710 feet, loss of 713 feet. So welcome to the net downhill course PR club my friend. You're no different than the rest of us 

         

        ETA: here's the course certification because we know that's all that matters . Only Indy qualifies. It is exactly the same height at the start and finish. Looks like we have our 2022 trip planned!

         

        Hartford Marathon

        5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

         

        Next Race: Unknown 

        darkwave


        Mother of Cats

          Think about all the folks who have their PR from CIM: you, JMac, RP, Darkwave, Nimmals, Swim, and, soon to be, Keen. And most ran other marathons besides CIM, but that remained the PR. So if I run it, but I'm on track for a PR, I'll have to slow down and just miss so my PR remains from a non-net downhill course. 

           

          To be fair, I haven't really had a shot at running a marathon PR since CIM due to various issues (truck thing, then back issue, then covid, and now recent health woes).

           

          Had I been able to run Indy in the fall of 2019, I think it would have been interesting to see how that performance compared to CIM.

          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

           

          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

          CalBears


            All joking aside, I totally respect a PR from CIM, just like from Boston. I just would like to get the first (if I ever get any) sub 2:50 from a flat course; just a personal goal I set for myself.

             

            Before running a PR at CIM (which I ran 3 times before that) in 2015, my PR was from 2014 Boston, and before that my PR was from Los Angeles, and before that - from Chicago! So, there was that constant improvement and getting more experienced with training and running marathons. If somebody thinks my PR at CIM is because it is CIM, it's their problem. First - I ran CIM 7 times - basically it is 33% of all the marathons I ran. Probability is still a factor anywhere in the world - if you continue pushing at the same spot... Second - how many marathons in December do you know? How many marathons with a weather that CIM has year after year do you know? If you are telling me the weather is less important than the course itself, then, I would not know what to say... Anyway, CIM is a great course, it's a fast course - but why? Move Chicago course into the Bay Area, run it in December and see how many PRs you will collect Smile

            paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

            Running Problem


            Problem Child

              CIM is my safe happy place. There I said it. Anyone can say what they want about it. It's my happy place, and I'm happy when other people are there, and making in person meetings is a happy thing to do. It's just so happy even when my RP says "i was expecting to do faster" after doing a 1:30 half, and PR in the full.

               

              JT  I don't have the balls to try for a 2:55. Training is, while minor, actually around 4,500 ft. but pretty flat for the Tuesday/Thursday runs. Same stuff I did when I trained to BQ/Sub 3 in 2019. This too is my safe space.

               

              Dwave I "like" the rolling hills probably because, like JMac it is similar to what I run typically (2020 still doesn't count). I do recall thinking "okay it flattens out after halfway" in 2019 just to be disappointed. I think I've ridden so many highs at CIM I block out the bad parts as much as I can. I remember you moving right past me a few miles into the race and I was floored by your speed, I remember cal introducing himself, and I remember JMac Strava stalking me letting us all know he was drunk at the beer tent. Even meeting back up with you, SeattleMax and kkrunner back in the day was a joy. The rolling hills just represent the training to get there.

              I've never had an MRI. Is that where they put you in the tube and you can't move and it makes a bunch of loud noises while you're supposed to relax and stay calm?

               

              JMac Every time I hear the word "Hartford" I literally think of the Animaniacs cartoon where Wacko sings the state capitals. "Hartford in Connecticuit. So pretty in the fall. something something something, AND MINNESOTA HAS ST. PAUL!"

              Oh and I could do 4E + 10M + 2E tomorrow as my usual Thursday run. Thanks for the advice. Sucks you're not coming to CIM. I'll try to get into New York so you can show me some of those cool spots you never photograph. Also, yeah my work day IS slow. I'm literally doing work today I'm going to let sit until after CIM. Finish it up today, and literally wait for CIM to get here.

               

              Keen I think you and cal are the only ones coming so if either of you want my phone number to contact before/during/after CIM send me a message. I'll have it on me during the race so you two can text me photos of where you're at on course and I'll look for you. 

               

              Today was kind of a test of the stomach/core and ankle I rolled. Ankle felt good to go for harder run since 8:00/mi had no pain on uphills or downhills, and the stomach/core....well that kinda felt like a mix of hunger pains and "i feel like I'm sick."

              Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

              VDOT 51

              5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

              CalBears


                 

                I think Cal will go sub 2:55 at least. Even if not in perfect shape he is the master of the marathon and will run a super smart race. Cal can run fast marathons using his brain alone.

                 

                I missed this piece. JTR, that's what I thought in Boston too - my mileage was good, my workouts were also pretty good and fast, I felt confident. But then I ran that pace only for 3 miles and after that I just could not keep it - starting from mile 5! I have many guesses why - maybe was not totally healthy, maybe it was a humidity and warmer weather, maybe I didn't recover well after Santa Rosa, or maybe I am just naturally getting older and that is what I only can do right now. No joking. Maybe it's just time. My training is OK, much better than 2017 or 2018 or even 2019. But I do not feel any reserves when I race, I started fading during races - that never happened before.

                 

                And I ran only 2:50 at Revel Big Bear - and I know absolutely positively that this course is at least 10 minutes (or more) faster than a course like Boston or CIM or other flatter courses. So, my estimate is that I am at the border of running another +/- 3 hours marathon, I think. On the other hand, opposite of JMac, I know I will not PR, so, why not to go for 2:55, right? What is the big deal if I blow up, right? Who cares at this point? Will see...

                 

                We talked about CIM and PRs. And now I remember, because it is hard to forget. That was actually a magical cycle. Honestly. I am usually "a glass half empty" person. But that was something that never happened to me before and probably never happens after. Even before starting the cycle, when I was in base building mode, my last 3 weeks were 90, 102 and 110 miles. Then I ran 10K without taper and I ran exactly the same time Keen just ran - 37:55 Smile. Also, within those 100 miles weeks I ran a workout like 3x2 at 6:00 minutes pace. And the training didn't even started.

                 

                I used Pfitzinger 12 weeks 81-100 miles per week Half marathon plan from his book of Faster Road Racing and literally saw an improvement in pace and fitness every week. Usually, in those cycles some of the weeks are better and some not so much, but that time it was week after week getting better. My only concern was getting injured - because things were so good. 3 weeks before CIM I PR-ed in HM after 105 miles week before. And then I PR-ed in 15K 2 weeks before the race (also without any taper). And then I PR-ed at CIM. And I think if I were a little bolder, like JMac, I should be able to run a faster race, because I was not even tired at the finish, and I didn't ran hard during last 3-4 miles like I usually do at CIM. But all I cared about that time was Moose Mug and sub 2:50. And I thought there will be more opportunities in the future to PR. 6 years later... 

                 

                What I am saying, and I am not trying to be arrogant or boasty, after that magical cycle, I would PR and run sub 2:50 at any of the available courses in the country. I was just lucky to have CIM with its weather in my neighborhood - so, I didn't waste that cycle for nothing 

                 

                Reflecting on my current fitness... I am thinking maybe getting back to what I was doing before for years - I would like to get back to higher mileage even with less workouts and see if it's really age that slowed me down lately. Or is it age still Smile. But man, those high mileage weeks were doing so much god for me - I never faded in a marathon back then.

                paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                JTReeves


                   

                  According to findmymarathon, the Hartford course in fact is a net downhill course. Elevation gain of 710 feet, loss of 713 feet. So welcome to the net downhill course PR club my friend. You're no different than the rest of us 

                   

                  ETA: here's the course certification because we know that's all that matters . Only Indy qualifies. It is exactly the same height at the start and finish. Looks like we have our 2022 trip planned!

                   

                  Hartford Marathon

                   

                  Buggery. I've been shamed and exposed as a fraud by JMac. Indy it is!

                   

                  Darkwave: Totally agree; you haven't had a chance to make a go at a PR. I really hope you get things sorted out and get that chance next year.

                   

                  Cal: I remember that magic cycle, lurking from the 3:10 thread I loved reading the posts from you and the others in the sub 3 group. That gave me a lot of inspiration, at that time just to try to break 3:10, then later to try for 3:05, and then sub 3. There was a lot of amazing training from that group, Strugglr, Dan, Tom, Mikkey. Good memories.

                   

                  Just to clarify: I'm not trying to crap on any of you CIM runners and your hard-earned PRs. I like to tease Cal and JMac about the course, I think they both know I am just teasing, but I should not have incorporated others into that teasing. I agree the course has constant rolling hills, which largely cancels out any advantage of the net downhill. Anyway, as JMac pointed out, I too have a downhill course PR, so you can turn the tables and tease me now. 

                  2:52:16 (2018)

                  Running Problem


                  Problem Child

                    JT I'll let you know I didn't see it as teasing. I'm just THAT in love with CIM. I seriously tell people "okay, before I tell you what I'm about to tell you I need you to know I've PR'd there like every time I've run it, broke 3 hours, and had my first BQ by over 5 minutes at CIM. Okay, now that THAT is out of the way....CIM is the greatest marathon ever."

                    I haven't run enough to have a favorite, or maybe it's just because it's local and so memorable each time. Perhaps one day I'll run Detroit or NYC or Hartford, or one of those Disneyworld ones so the family can have some fun while I recover.

                     

                    EDIT:

                     

                    IF GAVIN NEWSOM FUCKS WITH CALIFORNIA INTERNATIONAL MARATHON......

                    I don't EXPECT him to say "sorry, but positive test rates are up above 5% so all mass gatherings are canceled after Thanksgiving" BUT it's a possibility.

                    https://www.sfgate.com/california-politics/article/Gavin-Newsom-COVID-emergency-powers-16625463.php?IPID=SFGate-HP-CP-Spotlight

                    Why Gavin Newsom extending the COVID state of emergency matters

                    California Gov. Gavin Newsom has extended his state's COVID-19 state of emergency declaration through March 2022, which means he will have had emergency powers for (at least) a full two years.

                    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                    VDOT 51

                    5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10


                    Elite Jogger

                      I think my PR at London is slightly downhill overall. Shoot me!!!

                       

                      I’m just jealous that the Americans have these crazy downhill marathon courses. 😳

                      5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                      JMac11


                      Milkman

                        Steve - responding to your downhill course point over here, because again, we love arguing about it and I'll keep it out of the happy thread.

                         

                        There's no clear point of when a downhill point becomes "unfair" but it's one of those you know it when you see it. However, I would say there are two criteria some people use: world record standard, or US OTQ standard. The world record standard is very strict: only 1 meter per KM. The OTQ standard is 3.25 meters per KM. So you're looking at a limit of 140 feet or about 450 feet.

                         

                        The first standard limits courses even like Boston, which nobody who has ever run that course would consider it a "cheater" course unless you have a strong wind out of the west (it runs almost due east). That's what led me to believe the OTQ standard is probably the right limit. But that may be changing with this new cycle for the 2024 Olympics, so we'll see.

                         

                        As you see here, every single person has their PR at a downhill course, so we're just a bunch of cheaters over here 

                        5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                         

                        Next Race: Unknown 

                        Running Problem


                        Problem Child

                          I think it's a lot more enjoyable to let people enjoy their PRs and if they're willing to run down a mountain for 1-4 hours to do it it's awesome. Not MY cup of tea, and who am I to say what is/isn't a PR? It's much easier to just say "Congratulations on your 3:23 at the 2.9 mile marathon 5k you ran this weekend. Any other races coming up?"

                           

                          Something I learned "due to covid 19" is people really don't want to change and don't want opinions that aren't supporting of their thought process. I'm just as impressed with Cal's 2:50 at Big Bear as I am with JMac's CIM. I'm just as impressed with Dwave's 2:57 at CIM (had to check the blog) as I am her approach to race day conditions at Boston being miserable and her having trained for it. I don't think there is anything "unfair" about it. Including the course. I couldn't do any of this on any of those courses. yet?

                          Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                          VDOT 51

                          5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

                          need2tri


                            RP - congrats on Boston entry. BQ - 0:00  this year.

                            CommanderKeen


                            Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                              DWave - That's a lot of MRIs! Hopefully those do (or don't, depending on how you look at it) provide some useful insight.
                              The rolling hills at CIM (or similar courses) are actually what I'm used to day-to-day. I'd actually be more concerned with something like Chicago, which I'd have to specifically run the road around a couple local lakes in order to emulate how flat it is.


                              Newsom - Emergency powers and the ability to completely sidestep any legislature in setting restrictions is the EXACT reason I'm signed up for Tucson and have a (refundable) room there.


                              Gravity - Only exerts influence across the horizontal distance covered (base of the triangle) vs the actual distance travelled (hypotenuse), so that plays in to things a bit.


                              Pacing - I learned when setting my last PR that a nebulous goal such as "anything sub 3" isn't going to work for me and is about the same as saying my goal is 2:59:59 and setting an expectation for myself that that is as fast as I can go. I'll need to do something like (just examples) A= sub 2:55, B= 2:57:30, C= 2:59:59.

                              5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:24:16 11/19 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                               

                              Upcoming Races:

                               

                              12/4 - Tucson Marathon?

                              12/5 - California International Marathon

                              Running Problem


                              Problem Child

                                ZERO MINUTES AND ZERO SECONDS?!?!?!?!?!? All my "extra credit" was for nothing?!?!!?!?!?

                                Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                                VDOT 51

                                5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10