Forums >Racing>2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread
Welcome Flavio - I'm interested in hearing how you were able to move to Europe. I'm envious. And a marathon in Austria sounds super amazing! It sounds hilly too. I've always wanted to go skiing there. I'm glad you're here!
Mikkey - +1 to JT as September isn't that far away
JT - 4 mi + 2 mi. Sounds like a Daniel's workout and those are always good so it's a win I say. Nice 4 mi tempo too.
M: 40 min treadmill T: 60 min treadmill W: 20 min (8:14), 4 sets of 90 sec (5:4x), 60 sec (5:5x), 30 sec (5:3x) w/60 sec rec, 20 min (8:11) T: 40 min treadmill F: off S: 11 mi w/6 mi (6:55) S: 1 hr 50 min treadmill
Mmmm Bop
Mickey: Sorry about the marathon change. Are you going to try any smaller races or time trials in the meantime?
I’ve got a half in August and there’s talk that Parkruns might start up again in June, but nothing else planned at the moment. Good to see you back at it. 👍
DW - Another consistent week! Is 7ish min/mile likely to be your MP or was that just effort based on the day?
JT - Great week and seems like you’ve recovered well from your marathon.
Flavio - No worries about km, I sometimes change my watch/treadmill settings to km depending on what workout I’m doing! It’ll be interesting to see what workouts your coach gives you considering that you’ve already got decent speed.
Cal - Your 1 mile @ MP comment reminded me of a conversation I had with my fellow 1:30 pacer a couple of years ago. He’s a year older than me and has a 2:49 marathon PR and for his long runs he added an extra GMP mile each week and maxed at 18 miles! Rome wasn’t built in a day!
Cinnamon - A couple of impressive looking workouts there. 👍
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
Ash
Forgive me forumites… it has been like 6 weeks since my last confession. I just got through catching up on 20 pages of posts. Freaks, the lot of you. Love it!
I got sick the day after the 50k and didn’t run for 10 days. The last 4 weeks have been solid though – 80, 90, 100 & 90k. Only 5 weeks until I lace up.
Next: Ballarat, April 28, Pacing 3:50
Best: 5k 19:46 (Parkrun, 2016), 10k 40:37 (Track, 2022), Half 1:26:41 (2016), Full 3:00:23 (2021)
DW: Really strong long run; I will try to do a 2 x 5 mi MP long run this upcoming cycle. Do you ever do straight longer blocks at MP in a long run like 10 mi, or do you generally do blocks like the 2 x 5 mi? Regarding the ticks and Lyme: absolutely it is serious stuff. Unfortunately here in CT (and New England in general) it is loaded with them. I grew up in Michigan, literally in the woods, and spent tons of time in the woods as a kid and the subject of ticks never came up; they just weren't around. Now they have started to spread there, although nowhere near the levels we have out east.
Cal: My next race is 2 days before your next race (assuming you get in to Boston). My plan is to think less about goal time now and just concentrate on a really good training cycle. I'll be doing more T and M work than last cycle, and basically trying to do as much as I can while avoiding burnout/injury. I see your point about setting a more realistic goal, but I'd be only saying here "I'm targeting 2:52", while in my heart I would still want to (and still try to) run 2:50. Hard to rewire that!
jhudak: Wow, that's a lot of swimming! Have you ever done triathlons? Let me know if you want that May 29 half marathon on the table.
Cinnamon: Very speedy session on Wednesday! Also nice couple of runs on the weekend. Is your weather still hot and windy?
Brother Marby: You are forgiven your transgressions . You've had some solid long runs lately. Is there any goal in mind for Traralgon?
2:52:16 (2018)
Mother of Cats
Is 7ish min/mile likely to be your MP or was that just effort based on the day?
Honestly, both. I always run my workouts (and my races) off of effort - I know what marathon effort feels like (as reinforced by looking at heart rate) And marathon effort here averaged out to slightly over 7 minute pace.
Saturday's workout was run in pretty windy conditions (sustained wind of 20 MPH with gusts higher) on an exposed 3 mile loop, so targeting a specific pace would have been futile. I held an even effort throughout, while my mile splits ranged from 6:48 to 7:11. (the workout was surprisingly mentally easy - alternating ~10 minutes of suck with ~10 minutes of WHEE!!!!)
Grandma's is a point-to-point course, so perhaps my marathon pace is 7:11 if we get a 20 MPH headwind, and 6:48 if we get a 20 MPH tailwind.
DW: Really strong long run; I will try to do a 2 x 5 mi MP long run this upcoming cycle. Do you ever do straight longer blocks at MP in a long run like 10 mi, or do you generally do blocks like the 2 x 5 mi?
My longest block is 7 miles at marathon pace, generally to conclude a progressive long run. Otherwise it's a total of 10 miles at marathon effort in a 16-17 mile long run - split up as either 4-3-2-1 miles or 2x5 miles. I could do 10 miles straight, I guess - but I feel like I get everything I need out of 2x5. Per Jack Daniels - don't train any harder than you have to in order to get your desired result.
Marby - welcome back! I saw that long run on Strava - very nice.
Jhudak - no races for me before the 10 miler at the end of the month (which is not that far away). I did see a real race happening on Hains Point on Saturday (I didn't envy them at all - I'd rather be doing a marathon pace workout in that wind than racing a 5K).
As for the swimming - is it 0 to 1650 yards? If so, seems like you are pretty close already.
CInnamon- another good week with some nice workouts.
Cal Bears - congrats on getting the second shot done! And the speed work looks like it is becoming a habit.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
RIP Milkman
We've spoken about the 2x5MP vs continuous block before. It's amazing how different DW and I look at that workout. For me, I NEED the continuous block for mental reasons. In every single continuous block of 10-14 at MP, I run into a mental block about 3-5 miles into it where I say "I can't do this." If I was able to just stop after 5 miles, I'd never get over that hump in the marathon where my mental block usually comes about 10 miles in where I start to fear whether I can sustain it or not. Knowing that I've done 12-14 at MP in training where I felt crappy early on gives me a ton of confidence in the race that I will be okay.
MP work for me is less about the physical aspect and more about the mental. It teaches you how to run at relatively hard pace for a very long time. I've never felt that way about short tempo runs at LT, but I know Pfitz prescribes to the same philosophy (e.g. you should never do cruise intervals for marathon blocks, just continuous LT runs).
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Exactly! Don’t be a hero in training! Maybe it’s different for the younger folk, but I find splitting MP up into sections is so much easier physically and mentally and you can add on a few extra miles to get the same overall result...ie, I’ve regularly gone for 4x3/5x3...but 10 miles continuous and I’d be wiped for a couple of days!
JT: No triathlons for me. It's crazy to me the quantity of training the higher level triathlon competitors do. Yeah, can you put it on the table? It is the Medina Half Marathon, goal of sub 1:30.
DW: Yep, 0 to 1650 yards. I should clarify that my swimming distances are in total yards. I haven't done anything more than 400 without stopping.
Interesting discussion on ideal length of the MP portion of a long run. I've followed pfitz plans and done a 12 mile MP segment previously. I never thought to split it or do something shorter. In regard to the mental aspect, I gain a lot based on a "predictor" half run leading up to a marathon. That way you are able to just throw the result in a calculator.
3 months til Masters
Flavio- Welcome to the Marathon Thread!
JT-Solid Tempo. Similar to my LR this week. I normally start with that in my cycle, but opted for a more 10k based plan this year to get more speed in with lots of miles.
DW- Solid week. A good 2x2 and 2x5 in one week. That's some work.
Cal- The only thing Hudson loves more than progressions is hill sprints.
JHudak- Looking forward to your half marathon.
Cinnamon- Nice Fartlek
Marby-Great LR and welcome back from another runner who drops off posting sometimes.
My Week:
Big jump up in mileage after the race.
Monday 11 easy
Tuesday 9 easy 6.4 easy with 8x100 striders
Wednesday 8x800 @ 5:14 pace 400 jog....came in a bit tired and it showed 2:37 2:38 2:39 2:38 2:38 (Pretty toast) 2:44 2:43 2:43
I was feeling it after 3 and was toast after 5. Finished off by falling off by about 5 seconds per 800. I should have busted out the carbon shoes, but ran it in flats and just got wiped after the long day Tuesday.
Thursday 13 easy
Friday 9/6 easy double
Saturday 9 easy
Sunday 19.2 30 min WU/3x3mile @MP(6:04ish) 1 mile float/22 min cool down
6:03 6:06 6:07 (6:43)
6:02 6:04 6:02 (6:45)
6:04 6:05 6:06 (6:50
Some variation with elivation change. Had a hard time getting into the pace. Most of my work has been significantly faster and just didn't have the pace locked in....which is why i'm starting the marathon specific work.
May 15th 1/2 marathon coming up.
2023 Goals
Marathon Sub 2:37 (CIM) 2:41:18
10k Sub 35:00 (Victory 10k 34:19)
5k Sub 16:00 (Hot Dash 5k in March (16:48), Brian Kraft in May (16:20), Twilight 5000 in July and August (16:20/16:25 Both heat index 102-103F)
Sub 1:16 Half Marathon City of Lakes Half Marathon 1:15:47)
Sub 56:30 in 10 mile (Twin Cities 10 mile, Canceled due to weather, 56:35 as a workout)
2024 Goals
Sub 2:37 Marathon
Sub 1:15 Half
Sub 34 10k
Sub 16 5k
jhudak: Updated your half in the table. I agree on the huge amount of training needed for triathlons. The bike especially seems to need a huge chunk of time.
On the amount of MP: I'm leaning towards more what DW and Mikkey do for this next cycle. I've done some LRs with up to 10 miles at MP and they really wipe me out. Might be an age thing, JMac and jhudak are pretty young and maybe able to bounce back quickly.
Some good race news: the New Haven Road races will take place on Labor Day (Sept. 6). They have a 20k and half marathon. I've done the half twice, and it's at a perfect time (5 weeks before my marathon). It will be my first half since 2017; guess I am overdue to run one....
DPS: Just saw your post; awesome week. Those workouts look great. Looks like you're in the camp of breaking up the MP into smaller blocks? Though you did not get too much recovery with the pace of these floats in between the 3 mi blocks. Let me know if you want your half on the table; maybe you already mentioned it and I missed putting it there.
DPS - that is some impressive consistency with your pacing for that MP workout.
I think this can all be generalized to "hitting the right balance of stress/response/recovery."
For me, the 2x5 is something that doesn't seem too hard when I do it, doesn't take too much out of me, and I feel that I get good results from. But for someone else with different strengths/weaknesses, it might be too much or too little.
I don't feel I need to practice holding marathon effort for a super long stretch - part of that is because I've raced quite a few marathons and have confidence in the process, part is that I do my marathon workouts at the effort that I genuinely feel like I could hold for a good long distance, and so 5 miles at that effort is not super hard or imposing. Racing short distances accomplishes some mental callousing.
The distinction between JMac and myself, besides age and pace, also might be that he trains and races by pace while I do both by effort. I can see how, if you focus on pace, it is helpful to build confidence in that specific pace. OTOH, effort is what effort is. I don't need to prove to myself that I can hold a certain effort for 10+ miles without straining, since I'm already selecting the effort that I could hold for 10+ miles without straining)
I do think that as we age we get less and less room to play around with things. Less room for error. Our training really needs to be refined down to what works for us and not a smidgen more.
Very wise decision. 👍
I know that JMac is the speediest on here, but I don’t think he’s ever tried MP intervals before. His nerves couldn’t handle it.
Uff da half marathon on May 15th. Out and back on flat gravel former train track bed. Not sure on time yet. I'll be hitting 95+ this week so even with a little shorter week I'll be mostly training through. 1:18ish give or take depending if my legs are recovered.
I have always done 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 mile tempos building up every 2 weeks. Going with something q little different this time because of 2019 and 2020 having so much bade mileage, I have worked on getting some speed back.
Well, you all have been busy posting while I have been busy grading. Lots of nice weeks, so I won’t single anybody out. My semester has come to a close, and I’ve never looked forward to the end of an academic year as much as this one. I’ve decided to not run Lake Wobegon (JT, you can remove it from the list). I signed up for it to give me motivation through the winter, which it did, but I’m not anywhere close to being ready to run a marathon. And it is the worst time of year for me to be trying to gear up for a race (won’t make that mistake again). So, I’m refocusing on fall; debating on one of two half marathons in late September, and will be looking for something longer after that.
Regarding the MP work, I’ve always struggled with the mental aspect, so those longer workouts seemed to help give me confidence.
Problem Child
I’m another ‘I need to hit a specific pace’ runner and the M paced work dials in the feel someone like darkwave can do without looking at her watch. I would go out too hard and tank a workout even having done the exact workout previously many times. I’ve done them so much I know where I slow down and speed up just by seeing a tree or bridge or road. Still can’t get good at running by feel. I do attempt it during easy runs.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22