2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 453 times)

 

Wow... Absolutely, totally wrong. Just to see how wrong it is - let's imagine that I decided my threshold pace is 5:30, so? That means I will never do any threshold workouts, ever - because I will never run at 5:30 pace for more than maybe 800 meters. Your approach suggests that you know your threshold pace exactly, some kind of internal knowledge. And how do you know that? I have no clue. I know that pace based on my effort, my HR

Agreed up to this point. I know what threshold is because I've run threshold a hundred times. It was based off of guidelines though: exactly the things you say, which is HR, or current race paces. It's a bit of a ciruclar issue: you create your threshold pace off exact guidelines, which creates a certain feeling which you then call effort, and then say you run by effort. But if you created that feeling off of HR guidelines, aren't you actually running according to a formula?

My point was that if your HR and "feeling" says threshold is 5:45 on most days, but then you go out there and you can't run faster than 6:00 without breaking either the HR or "feeling" you have, then I shut it down.

Take an extreme example: you had too much to drink last night (I know, we are all serious runners and this would never happen ). You wake up at 5:00 and go out for a tempo run at your normal 5:45 threshold pace to complete a 3x2 mile cruise interval workout. Your body is saying "nope" to this run about a mile in, and you have to slow down all the way to 6:30 to feel okay. Do you just keep doing this run?

For me, I shut it down. I see no point in running two more sets of 2 mile repeats at 6:30. I might as well just go out for easy miles the rest of the morning.

Look at marathon pace runs. Are you going to run the 2x5 mile marathon effort if your first 5 miles were nowhere near your normal marathon pace? I'm not sure what the point is to continue doing it if you're not feeling it that day at all.

I don't view easy runs the same way. Feeling great? Might run 7:15. Running on a Sunday morning after a late dinner out with perhaps a few too many glasses of wine? I'll go along at 8:00 and hope to sweat out the hangover.

And DW agreed on your observation of these runners. Hard to tell whether they run fast because they're not suited for the marathon or they aren't suited for the marathon because they run fast.

ETA: DPS said it exactly right. Weird to say that you can't be formulaic in your threshold approach, and then say you use a HR monitor AND follow the guidelines for what threshold should be. It's just a different formula then saying run this pace.

People don't pick it out of thin air. There are ways to get it pretty close. It is about how fast you can run for a hour. It does not vary much week to week. It is also the pace that when you go below it, your heart rate begin to quickly spike.  Figuring out your threshold pace is something you should know if you run more than a few years somewhat seriously. Almost all training plans are based oof this in part. It is a core concept of training. This is an absolutely basic concept Cal. You are extremely wrong on this. Every high school/college coach bases workout paces based on this. Hudson, Schumacher, Daniels, Higdon all talk about this extensively in their plans.

 

In Cal's defense, his threshold pace (the pace he can run all out for in an hour ..the pace where his HR spikes if he gets above it...the pace where LT starts to accumulate beyond an acceptable amount...or whatever other definition there is) is often only about 5 to 10s faster than his marathon pace. That's not as meaningful of a pace for him as it is for most of us. That's my guess, anyway. But yes, he was exaggerating his point.

Regarding shutting down a workout, I try my absolute best not to do that. I don't mind missing my target by 15 or 20s just to get it done. I tend to think it'll help me better pace the following week. Also, I think you can still get something out of it, even if you've been less successful than you wanted. I don't buy in to the idea that magic only happens in very small ranges of paces.

 Agreed up to this point. I know what threshold is because I've run threshold a hundred times. It was based off of guidelines though: exactly the things you say, which is HR, or current race paces. It's a bit of a ciruclar issue: you create your threshold pace off exact guidelines, which creates a certain feeling which you then call effort, and then say you run by effort. But if you created that feeling off of HR guidelines, aren't you actually running according to a formula?

 

Specific number is created by your mind (even if you run it 10 times it is still not guaranteed on any specific day you will hit that "artificial", "from previous memory" number). HR is produced by your body on any specific day - nothing artificially created about it, to some degree it's a formula but it is an objective one, not subjective - it is what it is. That's the main difference.

Your example with over-drinking is not working for me. I would come up with another extreme scenario - suppose you are dead - would you miss your workout in that case? 

 Every high school/college coach bases workout paces based on this. Hudson, Schumacher, Daniels, Higdon all talk about this extensively in their plans.

Ha-ha-ha. You will not convince me with the "school coach" example - just because that coach from a college/school, doesn't make him/her a guru. Or make him/her know stuff better. The whole concept of "fast" high schoolers / college athletes is rotten - I am sorry, but those kids are tremendously young - and that's the thing - I know more than enough high school kids who were training with their parents / clubs and didn't follow any formal program, don't know anything about threshold, tempo, mp - and they are fast like lightning - just because they run with other runners and because they are young and I would say - genetically gifted (I tried fr two years to run with my daughter without any success - even if tech her threshold concept, it would not make a difference). So, please no high school coaches example (though I am sure there are enough good knowledgeable ones).

Re Hudson, Daniels, Higdon - not sure what you found common there. Hudson is totally different from Daniels - not even close - I guess that's why I tried Daniels couple of times and it didn't work for me. Daniels is way too "precise" to his approach with all those paces and formulas. Just doesn't work for me. I accept that it might work for you.

To DW's point.

Yes, external factors like extreme heat/cold/wind/hills change the pace to achievethe HR at any point in time, but not what the underlying threshold pace is. But again those changes are predictable and based off the threshold in ideal conditions.

For me it is 5:40 currently. I may adjust a workout if it super windy to make sure I'm working the right systems and purpose....but my threshold does not change, just the external factors. If Cal is going to run a sub 3 (say 2:57) his threshold pace would be in thr 6:22-25 range. Significantly after than his 6:45 pace.

 

For me it is 5:40 currently. I may adjust a workout if it super windy to make sure I'm working the right systems and purpose....but my threshold does not change, just the external factors. If calm is going to run a sub 3 (say 2:57) his threshold pace would be in thr 6:22-25 range. Significantly after than his 6:45 pace.

Sorry, still not working for me. Only wind? Only temps? How about - last three weeks you ran 120 miles per week and next two weeks you ran 60 miles per week. And after each of those different mileage weeks you ran threshold workouts (one after 120 mpw weeks and one after two 60 mpw weeks) - your threshold pace still the same? Of course, let's imagine the wind is 0 and temps are 60oF for both workouts days. If your answer yes, then we just different runners with you - you are cyborg type of runner and I am a mortal one.

 But HR can be inaccurate as well. 

Anything, absolutely anything can happen in this world. But for this specific case, very rarely - so, we can ignore it. You can also have chest strap HR and watch HR - to minimize equipment mulfunctioning.

 

They are all designing workouts based of 5k, 10k, threshold, and marathon paces. How much time spent on each speed varies and emphasis on which workouts at various points in a training cycle, but they all use those paces and have lactic threshold workouts as a core part of their plans. I own books written by each of them and they all talk about it extensively.

Nope... I also own all of the books - too many of them I guess. Since I started my running hobby. Hudson doesn't talk specific pace - it's all about effort - hard / moderate / easy. Pfitz - I do not know how others approach him but for me Pfitz is all about HR ranges - GA, recovery, threshold, MP - all based on HR ranges. Maybe some pf you see specific paces there - not me. Higdon? Ok, let's not talk about that stuff. Daniels - sure - numbers, bunch of numbers, no excuses, just go and do it