2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 453 times)

dpschumacher


5 months til Masters

    Yes. Even with the taper. If you are recovering on recovery days it would be basically the same. The difference is you can due the full hour run. The HR for my 3 mile segment while I hit 100 miles this week will be similar to the HR average for the full hour in a taper for say a 20k race.. It is why threshold workout are not simply and hour of running hard every week. It is why they are broken up into smaller repeats.

     

     

    Sorry, still not working for me. Only wind? Only temps? How about - last three weeks you ran 120 miles per week and next two weeks you ran 60 miles per week. And after each of those different mileage weeks you ran threshold workouts (one after 120 mpw weeks and one after two 60 mpw weeks) - your threshold pace still the same? Of course, let's imagine the wind is 0 and temps are 60oF for both workouts days. If your answer yes, then we just different runners with you - you are cyborg type of runner and I am a mortal one.

    2023 Goals

    Marathon Sub 2:37 (CIM) 2:41:18

    10k Sub 35:00 (Victory 10k 34:19)

    5k Sub 16:00 (Hot Dash 5k in March (16:48), Brian Kraft in May (16:20), Twilight 5000 in July and August (16:20/16:25 Both heat index 102-103F)

    Sub 1:16 Half Marathon  City of Lakes Half Marathon 1:15:47)

    Sub 56:30 in 10 mile (Twin Cities 10 mile, Canceled due to weather, 56:35 as a workout)

     

    2024 Goals

    Sub 2:37 Marathon

    Sub 1:15 Half

    Sub 34 10k

    Sub 16 5k

     

     

    CalBears


      Yes. Even with the taper. If you are recovering on recovery days it would be basically the same. The difference is you can due the full hour run. The HR for my 3 mile segment while I hit 100 miles this week will be similar to the HR average for the full hour in a taper for say a 20k race.. It is why threshold workout are not simply and hour of running hard every week. It is why they are broken up into smaller repeats.

       

      In ideal situation your threshold pace will probably be the same or close. In real life scenario, with life events and schedules - it's a pipe dream. Otherwise you would always run any race in approximately the same time - because, guess what - your threshold pace is always the same.. (with a taper, of course)

       

      Btw, just checked that you are 36 yo - that answers a lot of my questions - I believe JMac in the same age camp . Hopefully guys I will be able to talk to you in 20 years 

      paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

      CalBears


        Ha-ha - just realized that it seems I am arguing a lot - nice! - looks like I am in real training then 

        paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

        darkwave


        Mother of Cats

           

           

          DW - my approach to training isn't necessarily an all or nothing idea with workouts (not saying you were ascribing that to me, but I'm arguing this a bit). If I went out to go for a 4x2 mile workout, but had to bail after 3x2, I don't view it was a failure. But I also will not start that final 2 mile rep if my 3rd rep was way below target pace and I just know I'm cooked. At that point, I feel that I am risking both serious burnout or injury, and it is better for me to live to fight another day. It sounds like you will approach it as complete the 4x2 no matter what, but just slow down your pace to whatever you need to get it done. Different strokes for different folks on that one.

           

          So...not exactly.  I have no compunction about shutting down a workout - I've actually done it twice this cycle (right before I figured out that my iron and folate levels were low, non-coincidentally enough).

           

          I think what I was getting at was a) I don't need to see my pace to know whether I'm cooked - I can feel that.  b) the finish-the-workout scenario I was envisioning was where someone wants to split 2:58 for each 800 in 6x800.  Instead they run 2:57, 2:59, 3:01, 3:01, and then stop.    In that situation, just embrace the 3:01 and finish the damn thing.

          If you started your 800s at 2:58 and then started splitting 3:08-3:10, you probably don't need to see the splits to know that you're digging a hole.  You can tell based on how you feel.

          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

           

          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

          SteveChCh


          Hot Weather Complainer

             

            Wow... Absolutely, totally wrong. 

             

            I love it.

             

            I'm training for my first marathon and I'm sure I'm doing it all wrong...My target MP is I think reasonably conservative which may be why my "easy" pace isn't as significantly different as it should be.  I do know that the effort at what I think is easy pace has been genuinely easy (so far).

            5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23

             

            2024 Races:

            Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

            Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024

            Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024

            Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

              Good lord, you folks have been busy! I enjoyed reading through all of that. I'm looking forward to that 10 mile race later this month as it will help me to determine my current threshold pace. I want to try to do things a bit more "by the book" this time in terms of current T and M pace. Historically I run each pace too fast which likely has led to some of my problems/disappointments.

               

              SteveChCh: Good to see you over here on the darkside! Feel free to jump in regularly. Let me know if you'd like your marathon on the table. Will you have cool temps for the race? I know you have kind of the reverse of what we do season-wise, and that time of year would be rough up here for a marathon so I'm guessing in NZ will be nice and cool (hopefully not too windy).

              2:52:16 (2018)

              SteveChCh


              Hot Weather Complainer

                JT - Yep, why not?  The race is the Wellington Marathon on June 27 with a sub 3:20 goal (EDIT: Duh, noticed it's in my sig anyway...).  Heat definitely won't be a factor, but Wellington is one of the windiest cities in the world and the race is around the water so wind is highly likely to be a factor.  But if I get lucky and it's one of the 2 or 3 calm days for the year, it's a very fast course.

                5km: 18:34 11/23 │ 10km: 39:10 8/23 │ HM: 1:26:48 9/23 │ M: 3:34:49 6/23

                 

                2024 Races:

                Motorway Half Marathon February 25, 2024 1:29:55

                Christchurch Half-Marathon April 21, 2024

                Selwyn Marathon June 2, 2024

                Dunedin Half Marathon September 15, 2024

                dpschumacher


                5 months til Masters

                  Your threshold changes but in a 3-5 month period. My threshold in January was around 6:02. In October of last year about 5:55. I have done a ton of running that had lots of threshold work to drive it down, but it is a fairly steady curve... gradual...but a curve not a totally flat line. I couldn't run 1x10 min mile without being exhausted on 1/1/19.  Genetics plays a huge role in what that number is, but how your body reacts at whatever that number is, is universal.

                   

                   

                  In ideal situation your threshold pace will probably be the same or close. In real life scenario, with life events and schedules - it's a pipe dream. Otherwise you would always run any race in approximately the same time - because, guess what - your threshold pace is always the same.. (with a taper, of course)

                   

                  Btw, just checked that you are 36 yo - that answers a lot of my questions - I believe JMac in the same age camp . Hopefully guys I will be able to talk to you in 20 years 

                  2023 Goals

                  Marathon Sub 2:37 (CIM) 2:41:18

                  10k Sub 35:00 (Victory 10k 34:19)

                  5k Sub 16:00 (Hot Dash 5k in March (16:48), Brian Kraft in May (16:20), Twilight 5000 in July and August (16:20/16:25 Both heat index 102-103F)

                  Sub 1:16 Half Marathon  City of Lakes Half Marathon 1:15:47)

                  Sub 56:30 in 10 mile (Twin Cities 10 mile, Canceled due to weather, 56:35 as a workout)

                   

                  2024 Goals

                  Sub 2:37 Marathon

                  Sub 1:15 Half

                  Sub 34 10k

                  Sub 16 5k

                   

                   

                    Steve: Good deal; table is updated. I hope you get a nice calm day. At least it won't be hot.

                    2:52:16 (2018)

                    flavio80


                    Intl. correspondent

                      Damn this talk about paces got you guys going!

                      Meanwhile over in the sub 90 half board we're discussing something much more important: Which is better: Burro racing or Wife carrying

                       

                      I'm thinking I'll change the weekly tool so I can have metric and freedom units side by side just so I can annoy Calbears.

                      PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021

                      Up next: no idea

                      Tool to generate Strava weekly

                      Marby


                      Ash

                        Also being so close to returning from the couch and 80 lbs heavier, I'm finally 2+ years back running and in shape relative to my younger self.

                        80 lbs heavier? Maybe my conversion calculator is faulty.

                        Next: Ballarat, April 28, Pacing 3:50

                        Best: 5k 19:46 (Parkrun, 2016), 10k 40:37 (Track, 2022), Half 1:26:41 (2016), Full 3:00:23 (2021)

                        dpschumacher


                        5 months til Masters

                          On 1/1/19 I weighed 265....I am around 170 now. I was around 160-170 from high-school through my mid twenties...then work, kids etc took over and I put on the weight. I got back to running in 2019.

                          80 lbs heavier? Maybe my conversion calculator is faulty.

                          2023 Goals

                          Marathon Sub 2:37 (CIM) 2:41:18

                          10k Sub 35:00 (Victory 10k 34:19)

                          5k Sub 16:00 (Hot Dash 5k in March (16:48), Brian Kraft in May (16:20), Twilight 5000 in July and August (16:20/16:25 Both heat index 102-103F)

                          Sub 1:16 Half Marathon  City of Lakes Half Marathon 1:15:47)

                          Sub 56:30 in 10 mile (Twin Cities 10 mile, Canceled due to weather, 56:35 as a workout)

                           

                          2024 Goals

                          Sub 2:37 Marathon

                          Sub 1:15 Half

                          Sub 34 10k

                          Sub 16 5k

                           

                           

                          darkwave


                          Mother of Cats

                            Your threshold changes but in a 3-5 month period. My threshold in January was around 6:02. In October of last year about 5:55. I have done a ton of running that had lots of threshold work to drive it down, but it is a fairly steady curve... gradual...but a curve not a totally flat line. I couldn't run 1x10 min mile without being exhausted on 1/1/19.  Genetics plays a huge role in what that number is, but how your body reacts at whatever that number is, is universal.

                             

                             

                            I agree with your last sentence, except that pace is not the number in question.  The "number" is that inflection point in intensity of effort where the body begins to accumulate lactate because it is generating more than it can clear.

                             

                            Pace is just an approximation of that number.

                            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                             

                            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                            Mikkey


                            Mmmm Bop

                               

                              I understand the annoyance part, and I do think in general most people run too fast on their daily runs. I often get the statement of "wow, I can't believe you run so many miles. I can't do that or I'd break down." My thought is generally that they run races slower than me, yet every one of their easy days is faster than me. Slow down, and you'll be fine. And I don't run as slow, comparatively, as others on here, nor do I run as many weekly miles.

                               

                               

                               

                              Yeah, for some runners I think posting on Strava is a bad thing for their training because they feel uncomfortable uploading a slower than normal run. One particular sub3:10 runner I follow will frequently title their run as “very easy” at something like 7:45 pace - which is probably fishing for compliments as you get the inevitable  “oh your very easy pace is faster than my 5k pace!!!”  Yawn.

                               

                              Regarding threshold runs - I’m more in the numbers camp, although I’m in the minority on this thread because nearly all my big workouts during a marathon cycle are on the treadmill and tune up races. If I’m in say 3 hour shape then I’m going to want to see 6:20/30 pace runs (also for that boost mentally) so I press a button and do the business....then I can just chill during my easy runs outside.  I don’t see running more mileage as an excuse for not hitting LT pace as it’s just a case of slowing the easy runs down further - eg, if my average mileage is 60mpw then 8 pace is comfortable, if it’s 80mpw then 8:30/9 easy pace will sometimes feel more natural and enable me to still hit workout targets.

                               

                              Steve - You do realise that you’ll need to change your goal to 2:59 now? 

                              5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                                Ditto here Mikkey. You don't need to state its an easy run on strava. People are almost embarrassed and feel like they have to emphasize why their pace isn't fast.

                                I have no problem running nearly 8 to 9 min mile especially as you age you need a few warmup miles.

                                Then I will go run my 10k time trial and shock my strava mates 

                                55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT

                                " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

                                Somewhere in between is about right "