Forums >Racing>2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread
So, all that means I cannot get to a point where I am able to run 70-80 miles per week. And without it I do not think I can get into real good marathon shape. Last 3-4 years I was just running a lot of miles, doing speedier stuff closer to the end of a cycle and it was fine - was getting my sub 3 once a year . But now I cannot get to that high mileage point - I definitely speedier than usual right now, but that limits more running for me turns out. I will probably still continue having track session and then maybe some progression part once a week - either Friday or Sunday inside LR (though that means harder workout are close together - Sunday and Tuesday). Looks like have to sync my training with my age . Or think about picking up some exercises for my back (yeas, I don't do any X-Train - never did before also).
If the goal is to progress from Boston to CIM to Boston, it seems like a good idea to try something a little different here in this first Boston. But you previously found exactly what worked for you. So I'm not sure why you're changing that up so drastically. Building up strength with many, many 70 to 80 mile weeks then slowly adding in more intensity seems very logical to me. And you really did prove that it worked well for you.
My advice would just be careful with cross-training. That seems to mean a lot of different things to runners. If you're talking about a lot of active recovery things (like most of DW's different stuff: yoga, pool running, so forth), then that sounds great. But not sure how much direct impact it'll have on your endurance or speed. I'll let her chime in, but seems what that really does is allow you to better handle the mileage and the intense workouts. If you're talking about more intense work, like heavy weights or cycling, I'd just be careful about it.
I credit weight lifting for giving me an enormous boost in my speed. It took me from a 1:23 half to 1:19 in three months (along with the bigger running workouts I was able to get done with the weight training). But it also caused an injury that I'm still battling five years later. It's not totally surprising that you've introduced (or re-introduced) a new(ish) stimulus--track work--and you're seeing nice gains quickly. But just be careful that it doesn't lead to a real injury.
Upcoming races: Boston
Mmmm Bop
The one thing I’ve learnt is that you need to be open minded and not just stick to the same training formula year after year. I never did any cross training until 2016 and that was probably the right time for me to embrace it. I also would never run higher mileage again because I can get good results on 60mpw average and at 55yo it’s probably a good decision! My cross training is now golf....4 hours on your feet and carrying a set of clubs = Bliss!
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
Cal: For what it's worth, doing a strength session once per week makes a huge difference for me to prevent injuries. I know it works because when I have stopped it for a significant amount of time, those problems start to emerge. It's not too much time, 40-45 minutes, and has a big payoff.
On the other hand, you seem to be one of those lucky runners who are biomechanically sound and historically can just run without doing supplemental work and for the most part avoid injuries. Mikkey and Piwi are also in that category I believe. But if you stick to the track work and more intensity, it could help out.
That f&%*ing trail race really did a number on me. The soreness really came on with a vengeance Monday and Tuesday. Had to take both days off. Seemed like every muscle and tendon in my ankles and lower legs was sore. I never had that kind of soreness before. Mostly it is gone now, thankfully.
2:52:16 (2018)
Mother of Cats
I feel like most of what I would say about cross training has already been said. I especially like Andres's point about speed coming from strength work and Mikkey's point about needing to continually modify as we age. I've very much found both of those to be true. (now that I'm able to get back into the gym and use a power cage I feel like my speed is coming back).
I find it helpful to divide cross training into different categories. Are you using it
-for a running volume substitute (usually pool-running or biking),
-for injury prevention/strengthening (yoga and lifting), or
-for recovery (for me that's swimming and gentle yoga).
Not all cross training has the same purpose or benefits.
I also think that as we get older it becomes more important to mix in different things just to keep our minds and bodies agile and supple in all directions. To age well, you need to be a good athlete, not just a good runner (the jumping horses with the longest careers are never the ones that just jump. They always do a lot of different activities - dressage, trail rides, etc, to keep the variation)
And though nothing improves running like running, if you're continually spraining ankles or throwing out your back, then you are limited in your ability to run, which in turn limits your running progress. Additionally, as we age, we lose muscle rapidly, and lifting heavy in the gym is a way to slow that. Plus (back to Andres' point), as we get older, things like heavy split squats or step-ups can substitute to some extent for speed work, with less injury risk.
Thus endeth my brain droppings.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Intl. correspondent
OMR - It’s funny to think I had you labeled as the 100 miles per week guy.
Cal - Strength training is the answer. Injury prevention, posture, sleep better, become faster, run longer weeks.
Nothing massive, no weight room required or heavy weights, at least for now, unless you can be thoroughly supervised.
Just simple core workouts a couple of times a week.
As your core stabilises over time with the core workouts, the risk of injury greatly diminishes.
I have had HUGE gains doing functional training, 3x a week, 20 minutes for each session.
I don't mean gains in say now I can lift X weight, I mean I can now finish a 5k without losing my core by the end of the 2nd mile.
In fact I've just finished a half marathon and I was able to keep my form to the finish line because my core is now much stronger than it was just 3 years ago.
If you work sitting many hours this work will also help with posture and back aches.
This youtube channel shows some of the exercises I do: https://www.youtube.com/user/deweynielsen
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race
Tool to generate Strava weekly
Thanks everybody - really appreciate the input.
piwi - that was not my experience - these are first couple of weeks it started to bother me - last few years I was able to ramp up a mileage pretty quickly to 50-60-70 mpw without much of a problem. The only difference was that I never did speed work during that pretty steep mileage increase.
RP - will see. I will definitely do something.
Marby - I think you are right - I just did something I didn't do before - I started to increase mileage to high numbers (which I did before many times for many years) but I added one new stimulus in a form of a speed work. Even more - I also was doing 20-30 minutes of moderate/hard runs during some of my weekly workouts. Yep - no doubt - that was too much - planning on maybe having only one workout per week - all the rest is just running by feel - like I had previous cycles. And as soon as I feel good with it, I might add more intensity.
Hudson plan is crazy too, not as crazy as Daniels but still - he has 3/4 intense pieces per week within his prescribed runs - during first few weeks - it's either progression or fartlek - almost every other day.
Andres - the reason I changed something in my routine is because I wanted to - I wanted to do more intensity from the beginning of the cycle - because just running sub 3 won't bring me the glory over my narcissistic Brits friend, I think . Obviously, I made a rookie mistake, introducing too much too soon - I should have at least 6 weeks of running and ramping up the mileage without any intensity and only then adding it. Nevertheless, I definitely planning to add some kind of cross-training as my weekly routine - nothing crazy for now - squats, lunges, single leg deadlifts, pushups - something like that - I did some of that before but not on a regular basis. Probably it's time to have it every week and see if it helps.
Mikkey - ha-ha - it doesn't matter if want to adjust with age or not - it's either happening or you are ending up dead (injured) - if you continue thinking you are still in your early 30s As for your approach of not running higher mileage - sure, it works for me just fine
JTR - yes, that's what I am planning to do - nothing crazy - 30-45 minutes per week (maybe twice if I am good ). My goodness - your reaction on trail running is 100% like mine - for me, the first high elevation run (in my case of Mt Diablo running it's usually 4000 ft of ascent and 4000 ft of descent within14-16 miles) ends in 3-4-5 days of no running - usually because of my quads (and some perts of upper body, but quads...). The funniest part - it hurts more 2-3 days later after the run than the day later. If you have a motivation to continue (and I did - because I have to run some trail races to qualify for Western States 100 lottery), another two similar trail runs will make things normal - it will hurt less after second run, even less after third run and stops hurting unusually after 4+ runs - if you do the, for example every 10-14 days. For me, if I strengthen the quads through trail running, that strengthening lasts for approximately 3 weeks - if I didn't run trails for 4-5 weeks, then the "pain cycle" starts over again (maybe not that much but still). I am sharing just in case - because just road race training might become boring at some point - so, if you ever decide to run trails, that's what you could expect. But yes, I understood - you will never run them again As for me - couple of weeks ago my friend asked me if I wanna run some trails during weekend and I told him I am not running it for a year - because of what I just described - it messes up with my road racing and I have some challenge to stand to .
DW - I never had much muscles anyway (upper body I mean) - not sure how much I am loosing not working on them . But yes - I am planning to do some basic stuff for sure (mostly lower body though) and hope it will help with injury prevention. But again - it seems like it is an issue for me only because I am trying to improve my running times, looks like if I just run for fitness only (and fitness only I mean sub 3, right RP? ) - injury prevention is not a problem?
flavio - yes, my work is a sitting for 8-9 hours without much moving around (preparing a coffee in a kitchen maybe?). So, general consensus is that I should add at least something - and I am not going to argue with it - just need to become more disciplined with it and find time for it after my runs - either 2x30-45 minutes or like you do - 3x20 minutes - maybe 3x20 will be even more realistic as I do my runs early in the morning and have to be done before I drive my kid to school. Btw, just curious- are you planning to move to Portugal because of Portuguese language? I sometimes wish some of European countries (besides Russia) had Russian as their main language - I would move there immediately .
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
Crazy. I'm glad you're much improved now.
I'm guessing the experience of the race was close enough to what you've been doing, running wise, that you could pull it off, but different enough that you worked stabilizer muscles in a way that you never had before.
JT i think trail running causes more injuries than road running even though alot of people think its a healthier type of running.
I probably get some accidental strength training through my work ( wiring houses etc up and down ladders) and surfing. I still think I need some dedicated strength and I'm introducing squats and lunges etc.
55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT
" If you don't use it you lose it, but if you use it, it wears out.
Somewhere in between is about right "
RIP Milkman
Mikkey - you were a 7 handicap? I'm more impressed with that than your Moose Mug! I'm now a 10, the best I've ever been, but I just can't see getting much lower. My frail marathoner's body means I can't hit the ball very far
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
3 months til Masters
Yeah, I don't see you ripping 320 yd bombs JMac
2023 Goals
Marathon Sub 2:37 (CIM) 2:41:18
10k Sub 35:00 (Victory 10k 34:19)
5k Sub 16:00 (Hot Dash 5k in March (16:48), Brian Kraft in May (16:20), Twilight 5000 in July and August (16:20/16:25 Both heat index 102-103F)
Sub 1:16 Half Marathon City of Lakes Half Marathon 1:15:47)
Sub 56:30 in 10 mile (Twin Cities 10 mile, Canceled due to weather, 56:35 as a workout)
2024 Goals
Sub 2:37 Marathon
Sub 1:15 Half
Sub 34 10k
Sub 16 5k
And that was playing with the equivalent of ‘marathon flat’ clubs compared to today’s cheater clubs. I’m currently averaging around 10/12 over par, but still haven’t upgraded my clubs yet! I honestly thought you’d have been a low single figure handicapper because you are cool headed and you don’t need loads of muscles to hit a golf ball far as it’s all about timing!
RP - It’s OK, no need to start a new golf thread...just yet. 👍
You definitely need to upgrade your clubs. It's like running in shoes 10 years old, it's so much better now!
I ballooned up to a 16 a few years ago and have slowly been chipping my way downward. Think upper single digits would be a great place to play constantly. Feel like I'd need to be playing every week to get down to single digits without length.
I think if we ever do meet, I'd rather play a round of golf with you vs. go for a run. Much easier to chat, and we can have more drinks along the way
And don't worry, we need about 350 more pages of golf talk before we match what the Kiwis do over on the sub 1:30 thread in terms of getting off topic
You definitely need to upgrade your clubs. It's like running in shoes 10 years old, it's so much better now! I ballooned up to a 16 a few years ago and have slowly been chipping my way downward. Think upper single digits would be a great place to play constantly. Feel like I'd need to be playing every week to get down to single digits without length. I think if we ever do meet, I'd rather play a round of golf with you vs. go for a run. Much easier to chat, and we can have more drinks along the way And don't worry, we need about 350 more pages of golf talk before we match what the Kiwis do over on the sub 1:30 thread in terms of getting off topic
I will, but I’m not in any great hurry right now as I’m more focused on a different mindset as that was my biggest weakness.
NYC was my favourite destination race and would love to go back again!....I’d rather race Cal at NYC than be surrounded by a bunch of very average runners in blue and yellow jackets at Boston. And the day after we play at a course of your choice? 👍
I am ready to race you in NYC too (I guess it's the only way to shut you down on topic of downhill races) - I haven't run it yet too - plus, my family and I have never been to New York. Two things I am concerned about in regards to New York marathon though - how to get in and if I get in, how to avoid to be pissed upon from the bridge level above? Do I need to bring some rain coat for that?
Btw, my daughter wants me to run Helsinki marathon one of these years - that was my first marathon I've ran and she, for some reason, likes Finland - I have no idea why? I am trying to propose another destination - Barcelona, Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam, Rome, etc but no luck so far...
Also, re blue and yellow jackets in Boston... That is second and third waves - runners in first wave are pretty serious about racing the course - that was my impression at least all three times I ran it...
No I don’t think you need a raincoat unless it’s actually raining! I was a bit naive regarding the course as I didn’t study the elevation profile in enough detail as I thought Pulaski Bridge at about halfway mark was Queensboro Bridge and wondered what the fuss was about regarding the incline! I briefly stopped to say hello to rovatti at the Bronx thinking that all the hard work was nearly over....but I underestimated 5th Ave at mile 23 as it’s very subtle and you need something left in the tank to deal with that....but running through Central Park at the finish was amazing! 👍