Forums >Racing>2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread
Cal-If you've not worn any carbon shoes before I'd advise you to run in them beforehand, personally I think you can race them straight out of the box,but they are a very different feel to get used to at first.
5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39
JMac - Like DW, I tend to run in lower stack shoes for everything. Most recently, my go to daily shoe was the Adidas Adios 5. My VF's have about 70 miles on them that are basically races only. I'm not sure what you would gain training in them, but maybe there is something. While not super high stack, and no carbon plate, I have started to run in Adidas SL20.2. They have a higher stack than I'm used to, and I can really notice the comfort in my feet (no real difference in my legs though). So I haven't totally ruled out doing some training runs in my VF's as they age. I too am curious as to what others think.
Cal - Adding to what DW said about Houston, it does start together, but seems to do fine. The start is mixed in with marathon and half, but the faster runners are in the first corrals. So there's not a ton of fighting traffic too early. Then at the end, it comes back together, but on parallel streets that have a median. So there is no weaving around 3 hour half marathoners. They are quite well separated. You all get funneled in to an enormous convention center, and then can leave quite easily when you want. It really seems to work well.
With regards to trying out your VF's first, the first time I laced them up was to jog from my hotel to the start of Cherry Blossom. They felt super funky jogging, but felt totally fine in the race. It probably doesn't hurt to do a work out in them, but certainly not necessary.
Upcoming races: Boston
I know Jim Walmsley set his road 50 miles and 100K World records running in HOKA Carbon X 2, but it obviously doesn't say a lot - first - because he is sponsored by HOKA and second - even if he ran in sandals, he would still probably set a record.
I wonder what it would change - just a mental aspect of it? Because you definitely cannot adjust to a different feel in one or two workouts.
Did you run Windermere marathon? One of the women from our track group ran it on 5/16 - I never heard of that race before.
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
Mother of Cats
To add to this:
1) Not all shoes work for all people. Carbon plated shoes that I've tired and given up on (and listed on eBay) include the Adios Pro and the Endorphin Pro. The Adios Pro obviously works fantastically for some runners, but they feel like bricks on my feet when I get tired. In a similar note, I've known several people who have tried the VF 4% and absolutely hated it. It is not a universal shoe.
2) You can sometimes get a manufacturing defect. The first pair of VF Next %s that I bought, I took for a 3 mile easy jog fresh out of the box. They felt awful and painful. I took them off and looked at them - one shoe had a misshapen upper and the two shoes were obviously at least a half-size different (despite being both labeled the same size). I sent them back as defective. And was very glad I hadn't pulled them out of the box for the first time on race day.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
3 months til Masters
I have used the RC elite (new balance) and carbon x. It really does make a big difference, but I would use them on a speed workout before a race because some people do have some foot issues with their stiffness. I think running some repeats at 5k or 10k will also give you a much bigger sense of the difference. I don't feel much difference or even like the RC elite for 7:25 pace, but they are very good at 5:22. That is where you being a heal striker vs midfoot runner will make a difference.
I am yet to experience the "magic" (hype?) of Vaporflys - I have never ran in those shoes, even a training run, though I bought a pair from Mike site right before the pandemic started - so, when I wear them in 2021, they will be almost 2 years old, but still new . Hesitant to buy Next% at the moment, as I even didn't run in the original ones (which I have) - unless I see a sales of some sort, I will decide on buying or not after couple of races in VFs. Quick question - should I try VFs somewhere before a race, like testing MP pace - or it doesn't really matter? Anybody had any experience with other carbon plated shoes - Carbon X2, Metaspeed, Endorphin Pro? How do they stack up vs Vaportflys? Or Vaporflys are the kings of the races?
I am yet to experience the "magic" (hype?) of Vaporflys - I have never ran in those shoes, even a training run, though I bought a pair from Mike site right before the pandemic started - so, when I wear them in 2021, they will be almost 2 years old, but still new . Hesitant to buy Next% at the moment, as I even didn't run in the original ones (which I have) - unless I see a sales of some sort, I will decide on buying or not after couple of races in VFs.
Quick question - should I try VFs somewhere before a race, like testing MP pace - or it doesn't really matter?
Anybody had any experience with other carbon plated shoes - Carbon X2, Metaspeed, Endorphin Pro? How do they stack up vs Vaportflys? Or Vaporflys are the kings of the races?
2023 Goals
Marathon Sub 2:37 (CIM) 2:41:18
10k Sub 35:00 (Victory 10k 34:19)
5k Sub 16:00 (Hot Dash 5k in March (16:48), Brian Kraft in May (16:20), Twilight 5000 in July and August (16:20/16:25 Both heat index 102-103F)
Sub 1:16 Half Marathon City of Lakes Half Marathon 1:15:47)
Sub 56:30 in 10 mile (Twin Cities 10 mile, Canceled due to weather, 56:35 as a workout)
2024 Goals
Sub 2:37 Marathon
Sub 1:15 Half
Sub 34 10k
Sub 16 5k
RIP Milkman
Just to be clear - I am NOT asking about using VF for easy runs, recovery runs, or long runs. I agree on the pounding of the legs part. My approach has been easy/recovery/LONG runs being in normal shoes (Saucony Kinvara). I only run my tempo runs in cushioned shoes. I would never do a long run in VFs, defeats the purpose. Interestingly enough, I usually use Takumi Sens for my very fast stuff, but I've switched to the ZF lately because it's higher drop to help nurse my foot injury currently.
However, having said that, I still like the idea of doing both tempo and MP in some shoe that is somewhat close to what you would use if you were racing at those speeds. The ZF mimics the VF, but heavier. That's why I use it. I don't think I'll ever switch back to trainers on those runs. It's just whether the VF is reducing some of the magic you feel on race day, sort of like a batting donut.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Cal: FWIW, my own rating for plated shoes is as follows:
1. Vaporfly 4% (flyknit version)
2. Endorphin Pro
3. Asics Metaracer
I tried the Next% yesterday and surprisingly did not feel great about them. Maybe just an off day, but not comfortable to race in them on Sunday.
2:52:16 (2018)
Re: using the Zoom Fly/VF for workouts. I've read some speculation that they can actually encourage calf/achilles issues. The idea is that your foot/ankle is a complex joint, with flexing at both the ankle and the ball of the foot. The plate in the zoom fly/vaporfly prevents you from flexing at the ball of the foot, and thus places more stress on the ankle/calf.
OTOH, if it is actually working for you, then that's worth more than any hypothesis.
Re: using the Zoom Fly/VF for workouts. I've read some speculation that they can actually encourage calf/achilles issues. The idea is that your foot/ankle is a complex joint, with flexing at both the ankle and the ball of the foot. The plate in the zoom fly/vaporfly prevents you from flexing at the ball of the foot, and thus places more stress on the ankle/calf. OTOH, if it is actually working for you, then that's worth more than any hypothesis.
Yeah, mine is the opposite. I developed this achilles/PF issue in the fall when I was doing a LOT of mile paced work 200s/400s in the Takumi Sens. Still love the shoe. But they tear up my calves, and I think they led to these issues (it started in my lower calf, and slowly migrated over a couple of weeks and finally settled into this nagging achilles/PF issue).
Do you have different easy run shoes vs workout shoes (not track workouts per se, more like MP/tempo)
The Nike Free was historically my easy run shoe of choice, until Nike screwed that one up.
Currently for easy runs, I mostly run in either the Nike Streak 6, or the Adidas SL20, Adios 4, or Adios 5.
Track workouts are the Adios Boost 2 (I buy a pair whenever I see it on eBay). I've also used the SL20 some for those, but I just like Boost better than Lightstrike.
Tempos are the Adios 4 or whatever the heck shoe I want to play with.
Long runs are the Adios 4, SL20, Adios 5, or sub-2 (another shoe from a few years back)
I think that it's not as much "adjusting to the feel" as it is making sure that the feel works for you. Are you comfortable in the shoe, or does it feel awful.
Seems like with everything in my life I do not feel "razor sharp" about most of the things - I am kind of thick skinned. I do not remember any issues with any of the shoes models I have ran in for the last 10 years. Honestly, the last thing I am worried about when I am racing is a shoe selection. Seriously. Just really do not feel a difference. Of course, I will logically select lighter shoes for a race then heavier, but that's mostly because of facts, not because of some shoes I feel much worse or much better. Right now, for this cycle I have 9 pairs of shoes in rotation and the only one I would probably avoid for a race is Skechers Max Road 4 - only because last summer, when I just started to use them, my foot became really really hot while I was running in them. And that lasted 2 or 3 runs and then it was ok again. But the memory stayed . That's why I, theoretically, not concerned with how Vaporflys feel during a race, I just hope that physically that shoe has some advantage for getting better results in a race, that's all, I am pretty sure I will not hate it or love it (oh, I will love it if slices 5 minutes from my marathon time ). As I said, I didn't run in them, but when I tried them, they felt springy, obviously. But, honestly, Nike Fly Flyknit felt springy too. Yeah, I know - I am a waste for shoe designers (and not only for them )
Cal i have worn mine twice now in a 10k tt and a half. The hype is real they are worth 3 to 5 secs per km I reckon.
55+ PBs 5k 18:36 June 3rd TT
" If you don't use it you lose it, but if you use it, it wears out.
Somewhere in between is about right "
That's what I hope for - 4 secs per kilometer is 6.5 seconds per mile - 26 x 6.5 = 169 seconds - means I should run sub 2:57 for my next marathon. PK - now you are the one who is responsible - a promise is a promise
Just to be clear - I am NOT asking about using VF for easy runs, recovery runs, or long runs. I agree on the pounding of the legs part. My approach has been easy/recovery/LONG runs being in normal shoes (Saucony Kinvara). I only run my tempo runs in cushioned shoes. I would never do a long run in VFs, defeats the purpose. Interestingly enough, I usually use Takumi Sens for my very fast stuff, but I've switched to the ZF lately because it's higher drop to help nurse my foot injury currently. However, having said that, I still like the idea of doing both tempo and MP in some shoe that is somewhat close to what you would use if you were racing at those speeds. The ZF mimics the VF, but heavier. That's why I use it. I don't think I'll ever switch back to trainers on those runs. It's just whether the VF is reducing some of the magic you feel on race day, sort of like a batting donut.
I understood that to be what you meant. And maybe my earlier comment/question wasn't well phrased. I am just curious as to why you think doing MP or Tempo in plated shoes would be better off. And I really am curious; I don't have an opinion either way. I haven't tried the shoes for those types of runs, but am willing to consider it if there's a potential benefit.
DPS mentioned using those shoes for those types of more stressful workouts to save your legs a little. Your reaction was you don't want your legs saved. You want the pounding. Both seem logical. But if you want the pounding, then what advantage is there to using the plated shoes in those types of workouts that outweighs not having the pounding? Do you think your legs seem to adapt better to them over time and you can eek out even more of advantage from using them?
It seems like everyone agrees using the VF for everyday running doesn't make sense. For me, even if I had an endless supply of super shoes, they're just so awkward at a slower pace. I'd have a hard time getting over that.
DW - I'm a big fan of the Adidas shoes (but never tried the Pro). I have all the others you mention, and those are my go-to's. Biggest benefit to me is they seem to last way longer than other shoes. Although I don't have too many miles on the sub 2's yet.