2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 276 times)

JMac11


Taper Czar

    DPS - I saw your Strava post. What exactly is the point of a 20x400 workout in a taper period, at 77 seconds per 400? Not criticizing, I just have never seen anything like that in a taper. It's almost like VO2 pace, which is something close to 3 to 4K pace, but that's a lot of reps at that and within a taper of a marathon? Curious to hear the benefits of it.

    5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

     

    Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

    dpschumacher


    Making a comeback

      Last workout with some tempos Saturday. Just doing what my coach says. Will be down in miles this week and then 2 more taper. In theory takes 2 weeks to absorb work so this is about it.

       

      Coach is Bumbi (Andrew Bumbalough formerly the Bowerman Track club, 2:10 guy, and coached by WI ledgend Jerry Schumacher (no relation but my dad knows him who also ran for Wisconsin 15 years earlier)). So I trust him. The instructions were to cut short if Achilles acted up which I did. It has been a ongoing issue  thr last 4 weeks or so but it was a pain of 3 out of 10 but didn't want to push it. Legs and lungs felt just fine other than that. He is prepping to run much faster than goal but this time I'm going to try to go 20 in 6:00-6:02 and then push a 10k. We will see how it goes.

       

      For context I am pretty sure I'm in close to (fully tappered) 5k 15:50 shape, not my peak but pretty close. Jerry/Bumbi whole thing is strength running which is the only real option for a big guy like me. I'm still around 170. If I was a 6 ft 140-5 lbs guy it would be different

      DPS - I saw your Strava post. What exactly is the point of a 20x400 workout in a taper period, at 77 seconds per 400? Not criticizing, I just have never seen anything like that in a taper. It's almost like VO2 pace, which is something close to 3 to 4K pace, but that's a lot of reps at that and within a taper of a marathon? Curious to hear the benefits of it.

       

      New 2020 Goal: Actually run a race, any race, just run a real legit race. **Eye Twitching**

      USATFMN XC 6k Lake Elmo Championship 21:49

       

      2021 Goals (Assuming we can race again)

      Marathon Sub 2:40

      10k Sub 35:00 in Marathon build

      5k Sub 16:30 in Marathon build

      JMac11


      Taper Czar

        I'm not questioning the credentials of your coach (which seems great), but rather the point of that workout. Why is he asking you to do what I assume is a full VO2 max workout 17 days ahead of a marathon, a distance where VO2 max isn't needed. Again, this is for my own understanding here as I structure my own workouts. Totally understand this workout 16 days before a 5K/10K, where you do need a good 14+ days to recover plus this is exactly the work that needs to be done. Not sure I get the rationale 17 days ahead of a 26.2 mile race, but there must be something.

        5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

         

        Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

        flavio1980


        King of pastries

          Jmac - Heh if I can finish the marathon without hitting the wall it will have been a huge victory already.

           

          Jmac/DPS - that workout 17 days before marathon seems fine.

           

          DPS - I didn’t know Bumbi was coaching, that’s cool. You’re a big dude like myself, it’s always a lot more weight to carry over the finish line regardless of body fat %. We did see however some bigger dudes at the top 3 in the London Marathon last year, so I guess there's hope for us 

          PRs: 1500m 4:54 (2019) 3K 10:34 (2019) 5K 17:56.7 (2021) 9.86K 36:40 (2020) HM 1:21:59 (2021)

          Up next: ????

          Tool to generate Strava weekly

          dpschumacher


          Making a comeback

            I totally get you are saying. Just trying to put in context. So in theory it should be about 5k pace(tapered). Also with limited racing in so long it was about getting in head space to push when tired. Also focusing on getting turnover. I kept the steps short and quick even when it began to tire. My legs and lungs felt fine honestly, if not for the Achilles. Also it was in the low 80s and getting some hard work in the year as well if the marathon is hot. It was about 18 days out. I also have found that I struggle if I don't maintain the speed stuff with feeling really flat. The other part is after the 10x800 and then doing the structured long run, the long run felt pretty easy last week. This sat it will be a 6 5 4 3 mile run getting faster each segment to simulate a strong finish. My easy days are getting to be short doubles (6/7) today (9/5) tomorrow. So I'll be around 92 or so miles this week. So it will be 100 100 98 92 80 something low 70 something race week

             

            I'm not questioning the credentials of your coach (which seems great), but rather the point of that workout. Why is he asking you to do what I assume is a full VO2 max workout 17 days ahead of a marathon, a distance where VO2 max isn't needed. Again, this is for my own understanding here as I structure my own workouts. Totally understand this workout 16 days before a 5K/10K, where you do need a good 14+ days to recover plus this is exactly the work that needs to be done. Not sure I get the rationale 17 days ahead of a 26.2 mile race, but there must be something.

             

            New 2020 Goal: Actually run a race, any race, just run a real legit race. **Eye Twitching**

            USATFMN XC 6k Lake Elmo Championship 21:49

             

            2021 Goals (Assuming we can race again)

            Marathon Sub 2:40

            10k Sub 35:00 in Marathon build

            5k Sub 16:30 in Marathon build

            JMac11


            Taper Czar

              Interesting. Seems to very unique to you.

               

              Also curious on the taper - never seen such a little taper for someone running 100 MPW. Is that from experience that you do poorly with a normal taper? I tend to taper less than most (usually something like 88%/72% for the first two weeks rather than the usual 80/60), but this is one of the lowest tapers I've seen.

              5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

               

              Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

              dpschumacher


              Making a comeback

                Last year for the virtual version of the same marathon, I did 92 92 92 92 92 78 73 70 the last 8 weeks. Felt super quick and snappy the week of 73 and felt really flat the week of the marathon. I still ran well considering I had only 18 months of running after years of no running and not putting in a 100% effort cause it was a virtual marathon.

                 

                New 2020 Goal: Actually run a race, any race, just run a real legit race. **Eye Twitching**

                USATFMN XC 6k Lake Elmo Championship 21:49

                 

                2021 Goals (Assuming we can race again)

                Marathon Sub 2:40

                10k Sub 35:00 in Marathon build

                5k Sub 16:30 in Marathon build

                Andres1045


                  DPS - That's one hell of a 5k in the middle of training. Even if you're in 15:50 shape, I'd assume getting a 16:30ish run in after all those miles and workouts makes you feel good.

                   

                  JT - Not super surprised you came in a little slower than you should have. That trail race had to still be in your legs.

                   

                  DW - That's an interesting breakdown of your HM/FM results. I take away from that: you just don't know how they'll correlate in any given cycle. That's kind of a good thing. Let's you kind of push that race out of your mind, even if it was a good result. Seems common enough for people to have a great HM result 3 weeks out of a FM, then to fall flat in the marathon. Being able to separate the two is good, I suppose.

                   

                  Marby - Totally sucks about the push back.

                   

                  Flavio - There will be a wall. If not, you totally sandbagged it. Just hope the wall isn't so tall you can't get over it without too much of a problem. But if you assume there won't be, and you start to struggle a little at the end, then that can kill your race.

                   

                  JMac - There's life(/marathon training) outside of Jack Daniels! Pfitzinger is a big advocate of the 5k stuff at the end of a marathon cycle. He has his reasons for it. In general, I think you get so focused on that "what's the purpose of every run" thing. I understand that idea, but sometimes it's also worth experimenting with different things and seeing if it works for you, even if JD doesn't recommend it. I've never really liked the idea of the "what's the purpose..." thing mainly because you can almost always come up with some logical rationale for it. Doesn't mean that it's best for you. I've run with a bunch of ex college runners that seem to need 5k stuff to stay sharp, even when training for the marathon. I also run with people that got into running later and do way better at the marathon than the 5k. Them doing 5k stuff doesn't seem to help them for the marathon any. So no need for them to do it.

                  Upcoming races: Boston

                  dpschumacher


                  Making a comeback

                    It does feel good. Also a note I mean 15:50 on track, spikes, and then passing out.

                     

                    DPS - That's one hell of a 5k in the middle of training. Even if you're in 15:50 shape, I'd assume getting a 16:30ish run in after all those miles and workouts makes you feel good.

                     

                     

                    New 2020 Goal: Actually run a race, any race, just run a real legit race. **Eye Twitching**

                    USATFMN XC 6k Lake Elmo Championship 21:49

                     

                    2021 Goals (Assuming we can race again)

                    Marathon Sub 2:40

                    10k Sub 35:00 in Marathon build

                    5k Sub 16:30 in Marathon build

                    JMac11


                    Taper Czar

                       

                       

                      I've run with a bunch of ex college runners that seem to need 5k stuff to stay sharp, even when training for the marathon. I also run with people that got into running later and do way better at the marathon than the 5k. Them doing 5k stuff doesn't seem to help them for the marathon any. So no need for them to do it.

                       

                      But you just explained what the purpose is of those runs to each runner! 

                       

                      I'm actually saying exactly what you're saying: don't just follow a plan because somebody recommends it. Daniels does have 5K work late in a marathon cycle: I don't do it because I don't see how it helps me at all. I dropped all of his 5K type work with about 7 weeks to go to CIM and it worked out great. It leads to me being injured and I historically have not seen gains by doing that work. So I'm not directly following Daniels at all. I also change other aspects of his plans that I don't like: his crazy mixed MP and LT paced long runs, his lack of progression long runs, and his under reliance on longer runs of 21+ (where I've also argued some plans have over reliance on them, he is in the opposite category)

                       

                      My point in this whole thing is trying to understand why different people do different things. I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that you shouldn't know what the purpose of a run is. But it actually sounds like you are saying the same thing. I would just say you shouldn't be doing any run because a coach/plan prescribed it to you and you don't know why you're running it. Either the coach or plan should have rationale behind it. DPS and his coach do seem to have a rationale for him: he gets flat if he doesn't keep his top end speed up. That explains the purpose.

                      5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                       

                      Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

                      CalBears


                        JMac - There's life(/marathon training) outside of Jack Daniels! Pfitzinger is a big advocate of the 5k stuff at the end of a marathon cycle. He has his reasons for it. In general, I think you get so focused on that "what's the purpose of every run" thing. I understand that idea, but sometimes it's also worth experimenting with different things and seeing if it works for you, even if JD doesn't recommend it. I've never really liked the idea of the "what's the purpose..." thing mainly because you can almost always come up with some logical rationale for it. Doesn't mean that it's best for you. I've run with a bunch of ex college runners that seem to need 5k stuff to stay sharp, even when training for the marathon. I also run with people that got into running later and do way better at the marathon than the 5k. Them doing 5k stuff doesn't seem to help them for the marathon any. So no need for them to do it.

                         

                        Andres is the smartest (and wisest!)  guy ever!

                        paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                        Andres1045


                           

                          My point in this whole thing is trying to understand why different people do different things. I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that you shouldn't know what the purpose of a run is. But it actually sounds like you are saying the same thing. I would just say you shouldn't be doing any run because a coach/plan prescribed it to you and you don't know why you're running it. Either the coach or plan should have rationale behind it. DPS and his coach do seem to have a rationale for him: he gets flat if he doesn't keep his top end speed up. That explains the purpose.

                          I clearly had you pegged wrong then. I always understood the "know the purpose" stuff as following something very strictly. Like reading "You have to do X to produce Y exactly Z days before your race or you'll fail." I guess that's not what it is.

                          Upcoming races: Boston

                          JMac11


                          Taper Czar

                            Ha maybe I'm the one misinterpreting what that means, but we agree overall with the ideas, so that's what matters. Then again, definitions matter for you lawyers. Where's DW? She has infinite running wisdom and is also a lawyer, so she can solve this 

                            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                             

                            Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

                            dpschumacher


                            Making a comeback

                              Also I'm a 800/1500 guy in college moving up. 5k is likely my best distance if I wanted to get the best equivalent time, there are just not fast track 5k to run outside of college. And there are maybe 2-3 fast 5k road races none of which I would actually be competitive in. So strength and rebuilding speed is what I needed. I built up miles and endurance but this is the first time I have had some speed since returning to running, and that, I think, will get my marathon times down instead of adding more and more long tempos.

                               

                              New 2020 Goal: Actually run a race, any race, just run a real legit race. **Eye Twitching**

                              USATFMN XC 6k Lake Elmo Championship 21:49

                               

                              2021 Goals (Assuming we can race again)

                              Marathon Sub 2:40

                              10k Sub 35:00 in Marathon build

                              5k Sub 16:30 in Marathon build

                              darkwave


                              Mother of Cats

                                Ha maybe I'm the one misinterpreting what that means, but we agree overall with the ideas, so that's what matters. Then again, definitions matter for you lawyers. Where's DW? She has infinite running wisdom and is also a lawyer, so she can solve this 

                                 

                                You rang..... Smile

                                 

                                So...I find the discussion of "knowing the purpose of the workout" very interesting.  In my first sport, equestrian, knowing the reason that you did ANYTHING was considered very important.  You never got on a horse without knowing what you intended to accomplish in that ride, and shut down the ride as soon as you had accomplished that goal.  Riders were expected to ask questions of their trainers.  And to be able to explain, if questioned, why exactly they had just done something.

                                 

                                All of that as background for why I had massive culture shock when I swapped to running.   I learned very quickly that in running there is a culture of "being coachable" - just doing what the coach says, without question or comment.

                                 

                                Personally, I think that it is important to understand at some level why you are doing something, especially since we are all individuals and our training needs to reflect that (especially if starting with an out of the box plan).  Once you understand the purpose of why you are doing something, you can evaluate the risk/benefit of actually doing it.    The goal of cutting back mileage by 60-70 percent in the final week of a taper might be to freshen up the legs, but if you personally feel flat after that big a taper, then clearly you need to keep your mileage higher in that final week to achieve the goal.  The cost of the big taper is not worth the benefit.

                                 

                                At the same time, there is something to be said for the power of believing in your training, and thinking too much about the "why" behind your training can detract from that belief.  Some runners will NOT believe in their own choices and instead derive confidence from blindly following the plan that someone else has laid out to the letter.  Those runners perform best if they don't think at all about the why, but just do.  Ultimately, to run your best, you need to be happy, confident, and relaxed.  And there are different ways, both physiologically and psychologically, to get there.

                                 

                                (My coach and I have had some variant of this discussion, in reverse - my marathon training involves several tweaks to his preferred schedule.  I feel that I perform much better in the goal race with those tweaks; he would tell you that I would run much better if I only believed fully and without question in his training, and that the only reason my tweaks work for me is that I have confidence in them).

                                 

                                All of this is a long way of saying "it depends" - which is ultimately the only answer you are going to get out of a lawyer.  Smile

                                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                                 

                                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.