2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 352 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

     

    From what little I’ve read, it seems as though the logical thing to have done in this particular case was follow-up testing, which would have more definitively demonstrated her guilt or innocence.  At the same time, if pork is known to cause false positives, then it seems to me that that information should be shared with all athletes competing at her level, so that all of this could be avoided in the first place.  Ignorance isn’t a defense.

     

    I think the follow-up testing would have been difficult, since the test was in December, and the results reported in January.  All the meat would have been long gone.

     

    If you read the stuff floating around the internet, there are arguments that a) you'd have to eat a LOT of pork to hit that level; b) that it would come from boar meat, not gelded pigs, and boar meat is very rarely used because it tastes awful.  Of course, who knows how credible that is.  Which is why I'd love to read the CAS decision to see what arguments were presented and considered.

     

    I did also note that there was a warning in the past from FIFA (soccer org) that some birth control pills can result in a positive for Nandrolone. But that doesn't seem to have been an argument raised here.

     

    I do want to know - why is it only endurance athletes that get positive tests for this stuff due to contaminated meat?    It's not like they are the only athletes tested, or the only athletes that eat meat.

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.


    Elite Jogger

       

       

      I do want to know - why is it only endurance athletes that get positive tests for this stuff due to contaminated meat?    It's not like they are the only athletes tested, or the only athletes that eat meat.

       

      Actually the boxer Tyson Fury tested positive for Nandrolone a few years ago and claimed that it was from eating wild boar. He’s built like a brick shithouse, so I hope it’s true as he’s an absolute legend!

       

      https://www.boxingscene.com/tyson-fury-reflects-on-positive-test-i-never-taken-peds--144356

      5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

      CalBears


        Ok, back to meaningful stuff, that relates to real people (if they are not drug users, of course).

         

        What is the best routine to prepare for 1 mile time trial? Let's say I am doing 1 mile TT on a track? What is the optimal way to prepare for getting a best result? For anything else, like 10K, HM or FM it's not that important as you have plenty of time to get warmed up and get on target pace. But mile seems to be tricky - if you are not warm enough, you waste too much time to get there and run at optimal pace. If you too warmed up, you might left something out there and won't have all the energy you could use for a faster time?

         

        I know it certainly a stupid question to ask, but, let's say I ran 4 x 800 yesterday, the last two were at 5:55 and 5:50 pace. What would be a good goal time to target for 1 mile time trial next week? I know, it's kind of dumb question, but I've never run 1 mile and would appreciate any experience sharing.

        paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

        Running Problem


        Problem Child

           

          I think the follow-up testing would have been difficult, since the test was in December, and the results reported in January.  All the meat would have been long gone.

           

          If you read the stuff floating around the internet, there are arguments that a) you'd have to eat a LOT of pork to hit that level; b) that it would come from boar meat, not gelded pigs, and boar meat is very rarely used because it tastes awful.  Of course, who knows how credible that is.  Which is why I'd love to read the CAS decision to see what arguments were presented and considered.

           

          I did also note that there was a warning in the past from FIFA (soccer org) that some birth control pills can result in a positive for Nandrolone. But that doesn't seem to have been an argument raised here.

           

          I do want to know - why is it only endurance athletes that get positive tests for this stuff due to contaminated meat?    It's not like they are the only athletes tested, or the only athletes that eat meat.

           

          Hair sample would have shown if she had it for a prolonged period of time. You show up to a second drug test and all your hair is missing and you're guilty. She was emailed in January of the failed test.

          https://www.athleticsintegrity.org/downloads/pdfs/disciplinary-process/en/CAS-GM.pdf

          The only other athlete to receive a 4 year ban for testing positive for the same steroid provide 4 samples that all tested positive.

           

          https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12935548/

          The technology has been around for 15+ years. GC Mass Spec.

          "Moreover, the window of drug detection is dramatically extended to weeks, months or even years. "

           

          This is why I side with her before the details come out. ONE sample tested positive and the retest doesn't even happen when a different athlete is sampled FOUR TIMES within two months?

          Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

          VDOT 51

          5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

          Running Problem


          Problem Child

            Cal I only ran a mile once and all I did was pick a goal and go for it. I was told for the mile you want to be warmed up and ready to go as close to the starting time as possible. If it's on a track maybe get ready 10 minutes before and maybe 2 minutes before do some quick sprints to get the fast twitch muscles warmed up. I tried to hit my lap times as consistent as possible (it wasn't on a track) and it was during a marathon training cycle.

            Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

            VDOT 51

            5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

            darkwave


            Mother of Cats

              Ok, back to meaningful stuff, that relates to real people (if they are not drug users, of course).

               

              What is the best routine to prepare for 1 mile time trial? Let's say I am doing 1 mile TT on a track? What is the optimal way to prepare for getting a best result? For anything else, like 10K, HM or FM it's not that important as you have plenty of time to get warmed up and get on target pace. But mile seems to be tricky - if you are not warm enough, you waste too much time to get there and run at optimal pace. If you too warmed up, you might left something out there and won't have all the energy you could use for a faster time?

               

              I know it certainly a stupid question to ask, but, let's say I ran 4 x 800 yesterday, the last two were at 5:55 and 5:50 pace. What would be a good goal time to target for 1 mile time trial next week? I know, it's kind of dumb question, but I've never run 1 mile and would appreciate any experience sharing.

               

              So now we're discussing miles on the marathon thread....

               

              I think your warm-up depends on how long it takes you to feel good in a workout.  If, after your normal warm-up, your first rep in a workout feels the best, then stick with that warm-up.  If you tend not to feel good until you're a few reps into the workout, you need a longer warm-up for the mile.

               

              For myself, I do mostly the same warm-up for a 5K and a mile.  Jog for 1.5-2 miles, then 3:00 minutes at half-marathon effort.  Jog for 90 seconds, then do 4x30 seconds at 5K effort with 30 second float.  Jog another 90 seconds, then do 4x10 seconds at mile pace with 20 seconds jog.

               

              If I'm doing a 5K - I'm just doing drills+strides after that.  If I'm doing a mile, I may do a 200m at mile race pace if I have room.  If not, I'll just do more strides all the way up to the start.

               

              If you are a marathoner, it's really hard to overdo warming up for a mile race.

              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

               

              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

              darkwave


              Mother of Cats

                 

                Hair sample would have shown if she had it for a prolonged period of time. You show up to a second drug test and all your hair is missing and you're guilty. She was emailed in January of the failed test.

                https://www.athleticsintegrity.org/downloads/pdfs/disciplinary-process/en/CAS-GM.pdf

                The only other athlete to receive a 4 year ban for testing positive for the same steroid provide 4 samples that all tested positive.

                 

                https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12935548/

                The technology has been around for 15+ years. GC Mass Spec.

                "Moreover, the window of drug detection is dramatically extended to weeks, months or even years. "

                 

                This is why I side with her before the details come out. ONE sample tested positive and the retest doesn't even happen when a different athlete is sampled FOUR TIMES within two months?

                 

                I guess the hair sample would go to whether she had taken it many times or just once.  If hair samples are reliable (and I'm guessing the two sides would differ on this).  But the question is not whether she took it many times or once; the question was whether she took it at least once or not at all.  So I don't really see hair samples as all that relevant here.

                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                 

                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                zebano


                   

                  Hair sample would have shown if she had it for a prolonged period of time. You show up to a second drug test and all your hair is missing and you're guilty. She was emailed in January of the failed test.

                  https://www.athleticsintegrity.org/downloads/pdfs/disciplinary-process/en/CAS-GM.pdf

                  The only other athlete to receive a 4 year ban for testing positive for the same steroid provide 4 samples that all tested positive.

                   

                  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12935548/

                  The technology has been around for 15+ years. GC Mass Spec.

                  "Moreover, the window of drug detection is dramatically extended to weeks, months or even years. "

                   

                  This is why I side with her before the details come out. ONE sample tested positive and the retest doesn't even happen when a different athlete is sampled FOUR TIMES within two months?

                   

                  People still believe the athletes after all this time? I'm a bit shocked.

                   

                   

                  What in the world does her being only tested once have to do with anything? and yes, different athletes get tested at different rates. My understanding is it's supposed to be partially random.

                   

                  To the point about hair:

                  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352007817301853

                   

                  Hair testing should not be considered as an alternative to urinalysis but only as a complement in positive case to document the claim of the athlete, and it must be clear that in case of positive urine results, the negative hair result cannot exclude the administration of the detected drug and cannot overrule the positive urine result. 

                   

                  I will admit I'm not an expert in any area relevant to this but

                  1. We have a history of Professional Athletes in almost every sport doping (I'd be shocked if you could prove a sport was clean).

                  2. Nike.

                  3. The original statements I saw were very lawyer-ish and said something along the lines of "A burrito she order from a place that serves pork offal" -- certainly not that she ordered a pork burrito or that she ate it. I think her instagram clarifies that she did at least eat the burrito

                  4. As Darkwave pointed out - levels of nandrolone only occur in the organs uncastrated boar. Uncastrated boar is not sold in the U.S. and seems like a stupid thing to go out of your way to acquire because the taste is off-putting to many people.

                   

                  Occam's razor says she's probably guilty.

                  1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                  JTReeves


                    Ok, back to meaningful stuff, that relates to real people (if they are not drug users, of course).

                     

                    What is the best routine to prepare for 1 mile time trial? Let's say I am doing 1 mile TT on a track? What is the optimal way to prepare for getting a best result? For anything else, like 10K, HM or FM it's not that important as you have plenty of time to get warmed up and get on target pace. But mile seems to be tricky - if you are not warm enough, you waste too much time to get there and run at optimal pace. If you too warmed up, you might left something out there and won't have all the energy you could use for a faster time?

                     

                    I know it certainly a stupid question to ask, but, let's say I ran 4 x 800 yesterday, the last two were at 5:55 and 5:50 pace. What would be a good goal time to target for 1 mile time trial next week? I know, it's kind of dumb question, but I've never run 1 mile and would appreciate any experience sharing.

                     

                    I've done several 1 mile TTs on the track, and I would warm up pretty much the same way as for a speed workout on the track: about 3 miles with some pickups (around 6) thrown in the last mile, gradually getting faster, until the last one or two is at mile pace. Not long pickups; usually 50-75 meters. For a target time, that's harder to say. Were those 4 x 800m feeling like 5k pace? If yes, then it suggests you are capable of around 5:20, but given your tendency more towards the endurance side than the speed side, maybe 5:30 is more realistic. Hard to say. Maybe go out in an 82 for the first 400 and adjust as needed.

                    2:52:16 (2018)

                    JTReeves


                       

                      People still believe the athletes after all this time? I'm a bit shocked.

                       

                       

                      What in the world does her being only tested once have to do with anything? and yes, different athletes get tested at different rates. My understanding is it's supposed to be partially random.

                       

                      To the point about hair:

                      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352007817301853

                       

                      Hair testing should not be considered as an alternative to urinalysis but only as a complement in positive case to document the claim of the athlete, and it must be clear that in case of positive urine results, the negative hair result cannot exclude the administration of the detected drug and cannot overrule the positive urine result. 

                       

                      I will admit I'm not an expert in any area relevant to this but

                      1. We have a history of Professional Athletes in almost every sport doping (I'd be shocked if you could prove a sport was clean).

                      2. Nike.

                      3. The original statements I saw were very lawyer-ish and said something along the lines of "A burrito she order from a place that serves pork offal" -- certainly not that she ordered a pork burrito or that she ate it. I think her instagram clarifies that she did at least eat the burrito

                      4. As Darkwave pointed out - levels of nandrolone only occur in the organs uncastrated boar. Uncastrated boar is not sold in the U.S. and seems like a stupid thing to go out of your way to acquire because the taste is off-putting to many people.

                       

                      Occam's razor says she's probably guilty.

                       

                      I agree zebano. Just makes no sense, even with a copious amount of benefit of the doubt. As DW noted, it will be very interesting to read the report from CAS.

                      2:52:16 (2018)

                      zebano


                         

                        I've done several 1 mile TTs on the track, and I would warm up pretty much the same way as for a speed workout on the track: about 3 miles with some pickups (around 6) thrown in the last mile, gradually getting faster, until the last one or two is at mile pace. Not long pickups; usually 50-75 meters. For a target time, that's harder to say. Were those 4 x 800m feeling like 5k pace? If yes, then it suggests you are capable of around 5:20, but given your tendency more towards the endurance side than the speed side, maybe 5:30 is more realistic. Hard to say. Maybe go out in an 82 for the first 400 and adjust as needed.

                         

                        To add onto this, the second and third laps of a mile are where the real work happens. Laps 1 & 4 you're generally running on adrenaline unless you totally overcooked it. Focus on a strong middle portion to have a successful race. Spikes are worth a couple seconds if you're comfortable wearing them and if not, I suspect carbon plated shoes are just as good if you're comfortable running the turns in them.

                         

                        Regarding  warm up, it really really depends on the weather. I like at least 2 miles + 2 minutes at tempo + 3 strides starting at roughly 3k effort and progressing to mile then 800m. After that I'll sit around a good 5-10 minutes if it's warm out. The cooler it is the less time I'll leave, or maybe I'll sit in a heated car or put on some pants. At some level other than getting the strides going pretty fast, you probably don't want to deviate too much from what your body expects as a warmup for a race or big workout. I also think the shorter the race, the longer the warmup can be.

                        1600 - 5:23 (2018), 5k - 19:33 (2018), 10k - 41:20 (2021), half - 1:38:57 (2018), Marathon - 3:37:17 (2018)

                        dpschumacher


                        Making a comeback

                           

                          New 2020 Goal: Actually run a race, any race, just run a real legit race. **Eye Twitching**

                          USATFMN XC 6k Lake Elmo Championship 21:49

                           

                          2021 Goals for my 2 marathon cycles this year

                          Marathon Sub 2:40 2:39:27 Grandma's Marathon 6/19/21

                          10k Sub 35:00 in Marathon build

                          5k Sub 16:30 in Marathon build /16:34 BK5K Memorial Day 2021

                          Running Problem


                          Problem Child

                             

                            I guess the hair sample would go to whether she had taken it many times or just once.  If hair samples are reliable (and I'm guessing the two sides would differ on this).  But the question is not whether she took it many times or once; the question was whether she took it at least once or not at all.  So I don't really see hair samples as all that relevant here.

                             

                            Hair sample shows a continued use. Burrito defense might actually hold weight when you can show there is no extended use of the substance and maybe actually show she didn't "take it" in the "I'm trying to get an advantage" sense. Then again we're in the "guilty by way of social pressure" age so there is absolutely nothing I can say to make anyone change their mind.

                             

                            thankfully this same agency let some other athlete fail 4 samples taken over two months get the same punishment as someone who failed once. I see it as giving someone who got their first DUI the exact same punishment as someone who had 3 DUIs and killed a kid each time. Both had a DUI. Both runners tested positive. Absolutely no reason to look into it beyond the one test administered. End of discussion.

                             

                            EDIT: This just gives me one more reason to NOT watch the Olympics. The other big reason is the whole "these are amateur athletes doing it for the love of the sport. They need to be paid" blah blah blah crap on social media.

                            Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                            VDOT 51

                            5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

                            CalBears


                              Thanks all for sharing your experiences for 1 mile race preparations. Now I have a much clearer idea about what to do. Still, will do something wrong, but, it's obvious - there is nothing better than a real experience, will see how it goes.

                               

                              The story is - one of our track team members does Birthday Mile, so, anybody who wants to do that to was welcomed to do so - I think I will go for it - really curious about results. Surely will take few attempts to get a feel for it and see where the weak link is (but as it was already said - 2nd and 3rd laps are the key - will see).

                               

                              Thanks again everybody!

                              paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile


                              Elite Jogger

                                Sub 5:50 or bust. 

                                5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)