2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 312 times)

OMR


    Ian:  Thanks for posting that link, I took a quick peek and look forward to watching it all when I have time.

     

    laser:  Welcome!  (Is sleeping more enjoyable at high altitude?)  Regarding your cramping, I was going to ask about fueling, but I see Laura beat me to it.  But I'm still curious!

     

    Keen:  Solid week, and a good place mileage-wise to just float for a while.

     

    Laura:  Regarding the elliptical, it's a mixed bag.  I'm planning on doing at least one recovery day/week on it for now, because if I don't use it for a while, then the first time I work out on it, my legs are wobbly after about 30 minutes.  Beyond that, I'm going to use it to mimic hard efforts if the conditions outside aren't conducive to the planned workout.  For example, tomorrow is supposed to be a 60-75 minute run with a progression for the last 10 minutes.  So, I'm planning on doing all 75 minutes easy outside, and then a quick change of clothes and a 10-minute progression workout on the elliptical.  So, it will add 10 minutes to the overall workout.  Lastly, if it's really cold outside - we usually get a week where it doesn't get above 0°F, but this winter has been mild so far (knock on wood) - I'll just use the elliptical as a substitute.  (Whew, that was a long-winded answer...)

    JTReeves


      DW: Your training is looking good; what are you thinking is possible for Myrtle Beach?

       

      Laser: Welcome! It would be good to have a rough idea of your training leading up to that marathon. Mileage, long run length, what kind of workouts; that can also be informative on what led to the bonk. If you were in 1:24 half shape then sub 3 is definitely within reach. Let me know if you have a race you want on the table.

       

      Marby: Congrats on an excellent parkrun. I hear you on it being nice just to enjoy the race experience with other people. What kind of harder running will you start doing; tempo runs or some kind of intervals?

       

      Laura: Great job on the 5k time trial! Getting under 20 just coming off injury and some down time has to make you feel good. I noticed you had a big kick at the end which also is a good sign of what's to come.

       

      Keen: How did the group session go? Will it throw off your schedule being an evening workout (as I recall you are a morning runner)?

      2:52:16 (2018)

      laserjock


        laser:  Welcome!  (Is sleeping more enjoyable at high altitude?)  Regarding your cramping, I was going to ask about fueling, but I see Laura beat me to it.  But I'm still curious!

         

        The red blood cells you get make it so!  I had 5 honey stingers (miles 6.5, 13, 16, 19.5, and 22.5).  The course was essentially a 6.5 mile out-and-back x 4.  I would take one right before the start/finish on the first two laps and then added a packet at the turn-around after that.  The stingers really helped during a hard trail 30k I did in October (cramps then too).  I also kept a bottle of Tailwind at the start/finish.  However, someone misplaced it after the second lap so I had just a small water bottle on that lap.  It was found again before the final lap.  Temps were in the 40s (F) that morning so overheating wasn't a problem.

         

        It's interesting to note that you said that you had to move your marathon date up.  How much did you lose in terms of training/taper time from that?

        This was likely the main problem.  In November things were going very well and I was concerned I might peak too soon.  My December training was uneven.  I was not able to get in all the long runs planned due to a variety of issues.  The decision to run on January 1 was made with less than 2 weeks to go.

         

        I'd like to get some real long runs in now and experiment to see if I can figure out better ways of beating the cramps off, but I rolled my ankle pretty badly on a trail run last weekend so I will be awhile.

        laserjock


          Laser: Welcome! It would be good to have a rough idea of your training leading up to that marathon. Mileage, long run length, what kind of workouts; that can also be informative on what led to the bonk. If you were in 1:24 half shape then sub 3 is definitely within reach. Let me know if you have a race you want on the table.

           

          I was around 40-42 miles per week in November with a long run and a speed workout each week.

           

          Speed:  7 mile tempo runs (6:35 pace) or 7x1200m intervals (6:00 pace).

          Long: 19 miles mostly, but that involved ~1900 ft of climbing.

           

          As I said, December had a lot going on that derailed things.

           

          Well they keep cancelling everything.  My favorite race is the Pikes Peak Ascent.  It's not a marathon, but it's plenty hard.  I've been close  to sub-3:00 in past years so that's the goal.  You can put that on the table.

           

          [Edit to add]:

           

          It's just that I've had consistent trouble with calf cramps for years and at shorter distances.  Longer runs do seem to push the problem away for longer, but I feel like there is something else going on.

          JTReeves


            I was around 40-42 miles per week in November with a long run and a speed workout each week.

             

            Speed:  7 mile tempo runs (6:35 pace) or 7x1200m intervals (6:00 pace).

            Long: 19 miles mostly, but that involved ~1900 ft of climbing.

             

            Those hard workouts look good and the long run looks good as well; maybe a bit on the low end for marathon training (I'll provoke some debate with that last statement; I like to get to a 22 miler a few times each cycle but many get by with a few 19 or 20 milers). I guess the overall mileage is what stands out as low. Are/were you still doing a lot of biking in addition to the running?

            2:52:16 (2018)

            Ian5


              Laser-I used to always suffer with cramps,unfortunately no one has a cast iron answer to what causes cramp and it is about finding the right thing for you.I get less now my mileage has increased but when I get them it used to mean I was at the side for couple of mins but now I carry some small bottles of pickle juice and down them at the first feeling of cramp and it goes away,if you leave it too long and the cramp happens then it clears it pretty quickly,its something to do with the pickle shocking the brains waves.I will try and find the link but it works for me and others I have advised about it.

              https://www.healthline.com/health/pickle-juice-for-cramps#alternatives

              5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39

              Running Problem


              Problem Child

                Laser Run more miles. 40-45 miles a week isn't enough to build the strength in your calves. Cramps in a hard 30k trail run aren't what I'd call unexpected. Walking the last 3 miles of a marathon....you went out too fast. I'm going to guess you were still riding a bike a lot during the marathon training and considered it cross training. If this is true I'd skip the bike rides and the hour or two you spend riding I'd transfer to running, or weight training. I'd take a guess the calves can't take the stress of your paces beyond what you've shown and it should be a big focus. Running 60 miles a week will push your calves harder than 40 even if it's all easy mileage.

                 

                Ian Around the 18:00 mark of the video you posted John starts to explain the why and the motivation. To push himself. I get it and might kinda like him even MORE now. I think he's better at the "hiking type" ultras than the faster ones. Different strokes for different folks. I'm sure someone is already planning on their attempt at his challenge. Oddly, it's curious to see him fail, then turn around and pretty much lead me to think he's going to go after it again, because failure isn't an option.

                Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                VDOT 51

                5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

                CommanderKeen


                Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                  Laura - Good job getting through that course, and great result on that TT as well.


                  The group session did go well - this one was a pretty unstructured fartlek session, which worked well since I had done a tough workout Monday morning (before knowing 100% I'd sign up). While this will throw a bit of a wrench in my usual plans as a morning runner I'm sure I can make it all work out, and it was good to get to run with people again - outside of tiny bits of company during races I think it has been nearly 2 years since I've been in any social runs, and I've never done group workouts before.

                  5k: 18:24 5/21 (solo track TT) │ 10k: 38:56 4/18 │ HM: 1:24:16 11/19 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                   

                  Upcoming Races:

                   

                  10/2 - Wurst Race Half

                  10/17 - Hot Chocolate 15k (pacing)

                  12/5 - California International Marathon

                  Ian5


                    RP-Damian Hall will probably have a go,if he is decent on the bike,him and John both had a brilliant run on the pennine way,both breaking a 30yr old record,but Damian was a bit faster.it is incredible what these guys can do sometimes.

                    5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39

                    JTReeves


                      DW: I'll ask again: what are you thinking is possible for Myrtle Beach? Your training is looking great.

                       

                      Mikkey: Just read an article about London and the plans to have >50,000 runners this year; great news!

                       

                      First "official" week of marathon training for me. It went well. My tempo workout had to be on the treadmill due to icy roads that morning. It felt good; started at 6:37 and worked down to 6:02 pace. Today's long run was in very windy, bitter cold conditions but I was bundled up pretty well and actually felt overheated on the way back with the wind mostly at my back.

                       

                      Weekly for period: From: 01/18/2021 To 01/24/2021

                      Date Name Distance Duration Pace Gain
                      01/19/2021 Morning Run 10.21 1:26:41 8:29 558
                      01/20/2021 Morning Run 10.18 1:26:20 8:29 558
                      01/21/2021 Morning Run w/ 5 mi progressive tempo 11.33 1:24:26 7:27 0
                      01/22/2021 Morning Run 6.26 52:18 8:21 390
                      01/23/2021 Trail Run 8.44 1:14:11 8:47 545
                      01/24/2021 Cold windy long run 18.03 2:23:44 7:58 1493

                      Total distance: 64.45 mi

                      2:52:16 (2018)

                      jhudak55


                        John, 28, live in Northern Virginia with my girlfriend. I posted in last year’s marathon forum for most of the year. Most of my runs during the week are on the roads/bike paths in Virginia and I usually run long runs in DC. I pretty much stopped running in late October after my goal marathon was canceled. Looking to get back in shape and pick up where I left off last year. 

                        My PRs, all of which are from 2020 are 3:36 (Marathon), 1:27 (Half), 41:00 (10k, unofficial Garmin split from the half), 18:41 (5k, unofficial TT), 5:23 (mile). Plan for the near future is to slowly increase mileage, then figure out a goal marathon for the fall. Currently, the only race I’m signed up for is the Medina half marathon on 5/29 in my hometown. 

                        My week:

                        28.2 miles

                        M: 3 miles easy (9:05)

                        T: 3 miles easy (8:43)

                        W: 3.1 miles easy (8:51)

                        T: 3 miles easy (8:50)

                        F: Off

                        S: 3 miles easy (8:15)

                        S: 13 mile long run with 8 at 7:55

                        Ian5


                          Pretty poor week here.a combination of snow and ice the last couple of days and a stomach bug that lasted 3 full days kept me to a 27m week.I managed 2.5hrs on the bike machine on the days I had the bug as I didn't want to venture too far from the house.

                          5k 17:35,10k 36:43,10m 61:55,HM 1:24:03,Full 3:07:39

                          darkwave


                          Mother of Cats

                            DW: I'll ask again: what are you thinking is possible for Myrtle Beach? Your training is looking great.

                             

                            Heh - that's funny because I'm actually not crazy about the way things are trending.  I wasn't happy with my long run this morning - just felt sluggish and stiff and my paces reflected it (explanation for others - I train by perceived effort - not pace - so when I do 7 miles at "marathon" it's at what feels like a realistic marathon effort for that day; not some predetermined pace).

                             

                            This morning's long run was 21 miles, split as 7 easy, 7 moderate, 7 marathon.  Paces ended up being 9:13 for the easy, 7:53 for the moderate, and 7:08 for the marathon.  So about 20 seconds slower per mile than I would have been at this time last year.

                             

                            I have excuses - I only took one gel when I normally take two for 21 miles, my route had some underpasses where my Garmin lost signal, resulting in some artificially slow miles for the moderate and marathon effort sections, and I was overdressed for the run.  But even after allowing for all of those, I'm not where I want to be.

                             

                            So...right now I think 3:05 would be a good race for me, based on my current fitness.  And I'm debating whether it's worth driving 7 hours to Myrtle Beach and putting my body through the stress of a marathon in early March for a 3:05.  Right now, I think I'm going to complete the marathon cycle, and then re-evaluate.  I may just skip the marathon and take a break to absorb the training cycle, and then focus on Grandma's.  I also have a tune-up 10 Miler in 2 weeks.  If that doesn't go well, I may just shut the cycle down there.

                             

                            My week:

                            69 miles, 1500 yards swimming, and 1:40 hours of pool-running
                            M: 12 miles including a track workout of 2x1200, 2x800, 2x400, 4x200 in 4:41, 4:40, 3:07, 3:06, 90, 89, 43, 44, 43, 43. Recoveries of 2:38-3:04 after the 1200s and 800s; about 90 second recoveries for the 400s and 200s. Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.
                            T: 50 minutes pool-running and streaming yoga.
                            W: 8 miles easy outside (9:07) plus drills and strides, then upper body weights/core and 4 miles easy on the treadmill (8:49)
                            Th: 12 miles on the treadmill, including a 4 mile tempo in 26:10 (6:38/6:31/6:31/6:30), followed by 6 times 30 seconds hard (progressing down to mile pace) with between.  Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming. .
                            F: 50 minutes pool-running and streaming yoga.
                            Sa: 9 miles very easy outside (9:04), drills and four hill strides; upper body weights/core; and then 3 miles very easy on treadmill (9:08)
                            Su: 21 progressive. split as the first 7 at 9:13, next 7 at 7:53, next 7 at 7:08. Followed with light injury prevention work and 500 yards recovery swimming.

                            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                             

                            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                            darkwave


                            Mother of Cats

                               

                              Those hard workouts look good and the long run looks good as well; maybe a bit on the low end for marathon training (I'll provoke some debate with that last statement; I like to get to a 22 miler a few times each cycle but many get by with a few 19 or 20 milers). I guess the overall mileage is what stands out as low. Are/were you still doing a lot of biking in addition to the running?

                               

                              My input for the debate - I think anything between 19 and 22 is fine.  I do like to include marathon effort in mine.  I think one mistake that many people make is doing too many 18+ mile long runs.

                               

                              I think those speed workouts go with well below sub-3:00, unless there were very long recoveries for the 1200s.

                               

                              Laura - belated congrats on the 5K - those were NOT weather conditions conducive to a fast run!  Interesting to read about your ankle issues as I've been dealing with a similar chronic injury - back in September/October I did two rounds of PRP to heal up a torn ATFL ligament.

                               

                              Also - Zoom fatigue is awful.

                               

                              CK - morning runs solo or afternoon runs with others can be a tough choice.  Honestly, I'd go with the morning.  But I'm an introvert and hate afternoon runs.

                               

                              JTReeves - nice solid week for you.  I have to admit - I like the treadmill tempo - so much easier to hit a groove.  And you can listen to music while running.

                               

                              JHudak - welcome back!  I was on Hains Point this morning (parked at the tip, did a loop and then ran up to the MacArthur Bridge on the Capital Crescent and back down.  I noted the National Guard still has a presence on Hains - they took over my preferred parking lot by the Tennis Center!

                               

                              Ian - that sounds like a tough week.

                              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                               

                              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                              Running Problem


                              Problem Child

                                JHudak Man...those are some IMPRESSIVE 2020, and overall, PRs. Sub 19 5K!!! what happened with the 3:36 marathon? I guess on paper I'd expect you to have run a sub 3 already, or at least something faster than a 3:36. Are you going to increase the mileage for the half marathon, or have you started training and 30 miles is where you'll want to be?

                                 

                                dwave Do you think ANY of the overall feel could be from diet or even last years injuries? Even mental state can affect running pace. Trust me...I'm the WORST at letting the mental state determine pace. Could "Feel" also change on an actual race day vs training LIKE a race day? 70 miles...NICE week. As always, you seem to have it all figured out as far as back up races. Have you ever run Myrtle beach? I know you've run Grandmas and had good things to say about it.

                                 

                                Keen I'm all about that morning run these days. Especialyl SAturdays. ACtually...the Sunday store run proposed offering two times for runs. Currently it's all 8am. They proposed 7am (one vote) and 9am (one or two votes) Someone proposed 8:30 which seemed to resonate with everyone. It also helped one individual pointed out we've all been socially distanced and wearing masks since the "official" store runs have occurred and we get the store's potential concern.

                                 

                                My Week

                                More miles than I was/have planned for. 50 is about where I saw myself until child #2 arrives. A 5k just went virtural and a group is planning a "race" near my hosue on a flat out and back so maybe I try to break 19:44 again. Might actually have another runner capable of being ahead of me dragging me that last mile to keep hammering.

                                 

                                Date Name Distance
                                in mi
                                Duration Avg Pace
                                per mi
                                Elevation Gain
                                in ft
                                01/18/2021 That time es necesario I translate para túabuela. 10.20 01:27:04 08:32 151
                                01/19/2021 That time I realized big things are coming. 7.00 00:58:12 08:19 115
                                01/20/2021 That time I KNEW they’d do this. 7.01 00:52:31 07:30 118
                                01/21/2021 That time I had a very interesting paragraph from the boss upon my return from lunch. 7.01 00:56:19 08:02 115
                                01/22/2021 That time I threw a change up. 6.72 00:57:44 08:35 135
                                01/23/2021 That time I forgot everything 10.44 01:29:59 08:37 420
                                01/24/2021 That time I’d rather shoot myself in the foot. 9.42 01:19:09 08:24 302

                                Total distance: 57.80mi

                                Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                                VDOT 51

                                5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10