>Racing>2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread
37 going on 60
Way to get through it. Looking forward to reading the race summary
2021 Goals for my 2 marathon cycles this year
Marathon Sub 2:40 2:39:27 Grandma's Marathon 6/19/21
10k Sub 35:00 in Marathon build
5k Sub 16:30 in Marathon build /16:34 BK5K Memorial Day 2021
Marathon Sub 2:37
10k Sub 35:00
5k Sub 16:00
Tried sub 3 pace but it wasn't happening. Had to steady and hold on for 3:07:35.
Great effort going for it Marby and hanging tough! That's still an excellent time and looks like your pace did not drop off in a major way. Better to go for it and fall a bit short than wonder what might have been. This was a great training cycle for you and building on this you'll be set up well to get sub 3 next time.
Marby: Solid time regardless of not being able to hold the sub 3 pace! Excited to hear about the details of the race.
M: 11 mile MLR (8:17)
T: 4 miles recovery (9:23)
W: 8.5 miles with a 4 mile tempo (6:40, 6:38, 6:40, 6:47)
T: 5.2 miles easy (9:05)
F: 5.2 miles recovery (9:22)
S: 2.7 mile warm up then 5k TT in 19:09
S: 15.1 mile long run (8:32)
Another solid week for me. Ran a 4 mile tempo on the track early Wednesday morning. The effort was good and felt right, but my heart rate got a bit higher than I would have liked most likely because it was pretty hot/humid.
Then, yesterday I ran a 5k time trial on the track. Had two really easy days leading up, but my legs are still getting used to more mileage so I wasn’t sure how I’d fare. I ran to the track, did a dynamic warmup, then and easy lap followed by an up tempo lap. I caught my breath, adjusted my shoes and started the “race”.
I ran my first mile in 6:01 (from gps, so actually a bit slower), this felt like the appropriate effort. However, I freaked out a bit when seeing this split because I ran a 6:07 first mile in a 5k two weeks ago before a big bonk in the second two miles. I tried to push that out of my head and keep up the consistent effort. I did my best to remind myself not to zone out and let my effort drop. This has been a problem for me in the second half of races when it gets difficult. I saw the second mile split of 6:00 and was very pleasantly surprised. The last mile was rough but I knew if I held on I could run a pretty good time. That was a big motivator. Mile 3 was 6:05. The last bit was 0.18 due to gps inaccuracies on the track, but I was able to kick and close in 1:01 (5:47 pace). Final time was 19:09 which I am really happy with.
This is the second time I have run a 5k TT on the track. My first I didn’t realize how inaccurate a garmin is while running on the track. I ran that one by watch distance and for a short while thought I had an 18:41 5k PR. I’ve come to realize that that was probably off by at least 30 seconds (I have thrown that result out, lesson learned). So this is an unofficial 3 second PR.
jhudak: Great work on the time trial; very evenly paced. Like Cal said on strava, that bodes well for sub 3. FWIW, I ran a 19:11 5k before my first sub 3 marathon.
My week: I started adding workouts this week and the toe has been fine. In my long run today, after 2 x 3 mi @ marathon effort, I did 6 x 1 min hard in the last 3 miles, starting every half mile. That was a nice way to get in some hard efforts late in the run but without a huge strain. The heat/humidity seems never-ending. 70+ dew points are standard the last few weeks and looks like they will remain this coming week. Just have to deal with it.
Mother of Cats
Marby- I'm sorry I missed the chance to wish you good luck, but congratulations on a solid effort!
JHudak - nice week with an excellent time trial on Saturday morning. I would think that would be worth a sub-19 in a race with competition to pull you. I am curious - any reason that you're using GPS on the track instead of taking manual splits each 1600?
JTReeves - good week and good news about the toe.
42 miles running and 3 hours pool-running.M: 1 hour pool-running and upper body weights/core.Tu: 9 miles with 8 short hills (70-80 seconds up a 5% slope with 2:30-2:40 recovery) plus leg strengthwork.W: 9 miles easy (9:37) plus drills and two stridesTh: 1 hour pool-running and streaming yoga.F: 10 miles, including 6 Iwo Jima Memorial hills (~2 minutes hard up, jog, 25 second downhill stride, jog) plus leg strengthwork.Sa: 7.5 miles very easy (9:46), drills and four strides, upper body weights/core, and 3 miles very easy (9:23)Su: 3.5 miles easy on treadmill (9:51), 1 hour pool-running, and streaming yoga.
Another boring week - low mileage, strengthwork, and hills. I'm going to add in a few mile repeats at tempo effort this week, but it will be another week or two at least before I get into serious training.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Marby: Solid time despite not getting the sub-3. Curious to hear the details.
jhudak: Congrats on the 5K time trial, and a good week. That mental struggle in the middle of a race is often a problem for me, too.
JT: Nice week, that humidity is tough. And for a first week back at hard workouts, the 18+ with MP work and 1 min hard is impressive. Glad to hear the toe is cooperating.
Dwave: Continuing to ease back into things nicely.
S: 5.3M @ 8:30
T: 10.5M @ 7:48 O/A with 7 x 2min @ 5K effort
W: 8.3M @ 8:21
T: 10M @ 8:17 O/A with 8 x 60-75sec hill repeats @ 5K effort
F: 8.2M @ 8:31
S: 12.5M @ 8:24
Total: 54.9M. The 5K effort on Tuesday was slower than I would have liked, but the hill repeats seemed to make up for it.
Marby - I still think you did a right choice going for it - unfortunately I cannot see your splits (are you on Strava?), so cannot say any further. I hope you don't blame me (and others) for tying to convince you to go for sub 3. My advice was totally based on your training and on what paces and mileage you have had comparing to what I had during last few years. Your training was actually slightly better than what I had last 2-3 years - that's why I thought you had a good chance. I guess we are all different and you only can compare our current training to your previous training and make a decision. Next time I will not be the one who urges you make a decision you are not comfortable with . In any case - I am pretty sure you continue with the training for the next one and eventually succeed. Congrats on opening post pandemic marathon season!
jhudak - as JTR mentioned, low 19s for 5K is a good sign for sub 3 event, but... now you are on your own and you have to decide if you are going for it And your mileage is slightly lower than Marby's.
dps - I see you are still in a recovery mode - hopefully no considerable damage was done to your achilles.
Andres - damn! damn! damn! I see you are a parent from a way too civilized part of the World - because in our part of the World it's the parents who make decisions, not kids - kids have to obey until they reach certain age. I wonder if only kids were involved in making that decision . Well, I guess will see you next spring.
JTR - you are certainly back at it - with great mileage and workouts. 18 miles @ 7:09 - my goodness - I did 19 today @9:14 and almost died at the end (it was pretty warm and sunny though).
DW - queen of consistency and yes, I agree - your training is soooo boring But I guess it's another side of being consistent - people get used to it and accept it as normal.
OMR - your training paces are faster than mine - the same mileage...
My week was OK. I ran twice while I was in Disneyland and on the second day I created a segment there near the hotel we were staying in - and ran 1 mile there at 5:38 - just seconds off from the mile trial on track couple of weeks before. Was kind of surprised. And the whole segment was just 1.03 miles - my total time was 5:55 and I am keeping 1st place for now for that segment. Anybody who goes to Anaheim is welcome to overthrow me .
Today I ran 19 miles and the Climat app showed 61 oF ob the course which was total BS - it was definitely in the mid 70s and with the sun it felt much worse. I almost fainted 10 minutes after I finished, but I might made a mistake drinking a bottle of beer right after I stopped the watch. Sun and alcohol can do it to me from time to time. My wife immediately told me to stop running because I am obviously too old for that stuff and I had few cases like this in the past when I have to lay down and bring blood flow to my head instead of all the other parts of the body. Usually happens when it's hot during the run.
Mo - off
Tu - 7.31 @7:54 (1 fast mile while testing newly created segment @5:38)
We - off
Th - 10.18 @8:36
Fr - 11.03 @8:01 (6 miles @mp effort - 7:01,7:03,7:01,7:05,6:57,6:34 - this last mile was definitely @harder than mp effort - 174bpm which is more HM effort)
Sa - 8.26 @9:02
Su - 19.27 @9:14 (I wonder if I was overheated by the end?)
Total: 56 miles
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
JT: Solid effort on the long run, especially given the heat/humidity.
DW: Nice week. I'm thinking of implementing some hill workouts similar to what you have been doing in the coming weeks
I'm not sure why I didn't take manual splits. During the track tempo I ran earlier in the week I did, but didn't even consider it during the TT. It's definitely something I'll do next time so I can get some more reliable data.
OMR: Looks like I missed my opportunity to get out for a 0.2 mile run and edge you in weekly mileage yesterday.
Cal: The 5:38 looked really good considering those 3, 90 degree turns were involved. Sub 3 is definitely the goal, as you said the mileage needs to be there to get it done. I'm planning on slowly working my way up to 70 MPW and have a couple weeks in the low 70s.
jhudak: Very nice TT
cal: It's all your fault for making me do it
All: Thanks for the kind words, here's a summary...
Traralgon Marathon 2021
In November last year I was overweight and unhealthy as ever just having gone through the worst asthma attack I’ve experienced. I was coming off such a low training base that there was never going to be enough time to get in shape for a PB or sub three-hour attempt at this event. It was more a stepping-stone and something to keep the motivation up as part of a plan to get into that sort of shape by October. Then it got postponed a few days before it was originally scheduled because of a little virus. The delay gave me a chance to check in on progress with a half marathon time trial. I surprised myself with the result of that and with the extra weeks training it had me reassessing, altering training paces and thinking about having a crack.
I drove the 2.5 hours to Traralgon on Saturday afternoon and picked up my bib. The fact that I got bib number 4 might give you some idea about the small size of this event. When I was checking in at the motel, I mentioned why I was in town, and they arranged a late check out so that I could come back and have a shower. Then it was off to get some supplies and a feed. I had adopted a low carb way of eating late last year and enjoyed the opportunity to reacquaint with some old favourites as part of loading. Pizza and a beer got the nod.
Got up at 5am for bread with choc-hazelnut spread and then back to bed for an hour. Had a shower, applied lube and on with the race kit plus a warm layer. A ten-minute drive to the vineyard and was directed to parking about 50m from the finish line. That meant I was able to get the lay of the land, catch up a ex cross country teammate, shed the warm layer, top up with about 50g of carbs, some coconut water, swap to race shoes and jog for about 8 minutes before walking down to the start.
0-3km = a bit slower than I wanted to see and a bit harder than I wanted it to feel, just a bit. 4:22(7:01) average
3-6km= happy with the pace and feel through this section, I settled in nicely and needed to touch the breaks a little to check the pace. 4:08(6:39)
6-12km = still felt good, had a guy about 50m ahead and had thoughts of moving up to him but that gap slowly increased. I still thought there was some chance that I was on for a good one. What I didn’t know – wasn’t monitoring (wrist) heart rate – from 9-12km HR was up around 180. 4:18(6:55)
12-16km = pace was still okay, but the feel was slightly off. No panic yet though, I knew that I was on a very gradual uphill through most of the first half. If this was just a bad patch, and I didn’t slow significantly I still thought the potential was there to come home strong after the turn and back downhill. 4:19(6:56)
16-20km = Although I wasn’t throwing in the towel yet, it was about here that I knew. Effort level was about the same but the 1km splits were drifting in the wrong direction, only a few secs per km to be fair but it was just too early for that be happening. 4:24(7:04)
20-28km = Ouch. Thoughts turned to B, then C & then D goals. Could I hold on for a PB (3:02:48), unlikely. Could I hold on for sub 3:05, doubtful. It started feeling dire, holding on for sub 3:10 would be an achievement. I started to feel some awareness on my right side – quad, outer knee, achilles, shin. I had bitten off more than I could chew and was paying the price. Quitting crossed my mind. The splits slowed. The awareness kept moving around and then faded. I got a bit of rhythm back. There was 14km to go. “You can run 14km, it’s downhill, you’ve got the training in your legs, you can do this.” 4:34(7:20)
28-42.2km = I didn’t look at my watch once. Just kept repeating my mantra. “Smooth, Steady, Strong, 13 to go” then the watch would beep to indicate another km completed, “Smooth, Steady, Strong, 12 to go”. I kept that going all the way to 5 to go and then it was more of the same, but a bit harder and smidge faster. The finish was designed by a masochist – a short, sharp hill. 4:31(7:16)
Looking back at the splits over that last 14km I’m surprised and pleased with how even they were. I am happy with the effort I put in, being able to make the adjustment when things were heading south and to come out of with a scrappy but respectable result. In hindsight I think I could have run closer to 3:03-3:04 with a strategy targeting that time – that’s also what I thought was more realistic going in. I don’t regret going for it though. How often do you get through a build up with the body feeling great, have perfect weather and an event that happens?
1:31.22 out, 1:36:13 in
Except for two mouthfuls of water at the turnaround (23km) I ran this without taking on any food or drink. I was carrying both but just didn’t feel like I needed or wanted it. Being fat adapted with a strategic carb load seems to have provided sufficient energy.
The entire marathon field was 117 runners (I was 22nd), it was won in 2:29. There were 28 in my age group (I was 2nd). I was running solo for ALL of it. Mostly it was on gravel with some very short sections on road, along the old rail line and past grazing land. There was a sign at one point warning that no horses were allowed to use the bridge. They must have some well-educated and compliant horses. It was foggy for the first hour or so with visibility around 200m and then sunny once that lifted. I think it was little warmer than forecast, maybe 6-9C. No t-shirt, which is fine, I’ve got loads of those already. Did get a medal and lunch for my 80 AUD. The shower was awesome. The drive home not so much. Overall, I’m happy with the result and the experience.
There’s 13 weeks until the next one. The only plan at this stage is two weeks of sweet FA and to come up with a plan to get faster.
Half 1:26:41 (2016), Marathon 2:59:83 (2021)
Good story Marby. Just what I needed to pep up my spirits. Way to stick it out to the finish. While it might not have been a PB I think quitting would have done a lot of mental damage.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07
Marby - That’s an excellent time. You mentioned before the race not feeling great during the taper week and IIRC this is the race that was postponed due to a lockdown right?
So you might’ve missed the peak window as well. Overall a great time to build on.
Jhuda - Nice tempo and excellent 5k, sub 19 ensures you pass the Lady Gaga challenge (As per internet knowledge, a male who runs a 5k race in over 20 minutes needs to dress in one of Lady Gaga’s costumes as punishment).
JT - that’s a tough long run, kudos for completing that. Also complete chaos in the Monaco Diamond League building up a lot the anticipation for the Olympic races. Kipyegon showing some teeth, Laura Muir running a super fast 800, officials ringing the bell one lap early on the men’s 3000sc. Oh and Timmy showing who’s boss on the 1500 race.
OMR - hill repeats are excellent to build aerobic strength and so long as the effort was right it was worthy.
Cal - was your segment on an open street? Cause if so, I bet someone will pass there with a car and beat your time with something ridiculous like 90 seconds or so.
me - Nice week, tough long run, but never felt crossing the red line. I guess my body is starting to adapt.
PRs: 1500 4:51 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: Rest and recover
Tool to generate Strava weekly
Marby: Nicely written report. "The finish was designed by a masochist"....got a good laugh from that! Overall a well-executed race and as flavio said, a great point to build on the the Oct. race.
Darkwave: I've learned some useful strength training things (specifically on squats) from you via the 1:30 thread; thanks for that!
OMR: Some nice speedwork in your week. Will you run any shorter races or time trials prior to your half?
Cal: A 5:38 mile on the road is impressive, much tougher than a 5:38 on the track. All that speedwork is paying off for you. I can relate regarding the fainting; I have some good stories about that. And my wife also scolded me after it happened. Anyway, it was also related to heat and dehydration. I can tell you the whole story over beers after Boston next April. BTW, did your buddy Kayry run Western States? Did you follow the race? Pretty impressive result from Walmsley, especially since he was injured for a good part of the training leading up to it.
Flavio: Now that looks like a serious marathon training week! Love the 5 mi tempo and the long run. If you keep this up you will be golden. Monaco was exciting, as always. I felt bad for the guy who sprinted the penultimate lap in the steeple when those turkeys rang the bell a lap early. Whoever did that should be fired from the bell-ringing job. And it almost seemed like it happened in the women's steeple as well; the leader ran the 2nd to last lap hard and then faded terribly the last lap. Very strange. Regarding Timmy C: if Athletics Kenya leaves him off their 1500 squad they are complete morons; he's a lock for the gold.
Hot Weather Complainer
Marby - Congrats on a great race. Given how you felt with 20km to go, they way you held on to your pace was very very impressive. If you can get a time like that without optimal pacing, a PB and sub 3 isn't far away.
me - My rescheduled marathon is on October 10 which is not ideal as it would require a whole new cycle although not starting from scratch obviously. I've decided to target 2 half-marathons this year and hopefully do my debut marathon at Christchurch April 2022, or use my deferred entry for Wellington June 2022 (if I do Christchurch, I'll downgrade Wellington to a half). So it's back into lurk mode in this thread for me...disappointed not to be part of the marathon club yet but excited that I've planned out the next 12 months after a few weeks of depression after the last minute race postponement.
PB: Christchurch 2016 1:29.25
Recent Races: Selwyn Running Festival Half-Marathon 1:29:32 November 7, 2021
Race plan: Christchurch Marathon April 10, 2022 (Target: Sub 3:20). Southern Lakes Half Marathon May 7, 2022 (backup race if the cancellation curse continues)
cal: The fact that we ran basically the same mileage, but you ran at an overall slower tempo, means that you trained for longer than me. If I have a drink right after I run, it goes down WAY too fast.
jhudak: Well, if you had gone back out for that 0.2 run, I would have had to get out for another 0.11, and I really wouldn't have wanted to do that, so thanks for not getting back out there.
Marby: Appreciated the report, good for you for modifying the plan on the fly and sticking through it to the end. Interesting that the carb load seemed to work that well for you since you are fat adapted. I've been modifying my diet to remove some of the carbs in favor of more fat, but not completely. I do think the gravel could potentially cost you some time/energy, depending on how loose it was. I know that whenever I run on gravel around here, my HR goes up maybe about 5 bpm for the same pace.
flavio: I agree (regarding the effort of the hill repeats). Too many variables to be concerned with speed, unless they're done on a treadmill. Nice week for you, with an impressive 18M to cap it off.
JT: There is another "microbrewery 5K" in late August that I will probably run; also an evening race, and it will probably be just as hot. Maybe I'll be a little more used to the heat by then? Otherwise, I may look for something else, or just toss in a time trial on a random cool day, if we ever get one that happens to fit into my training schedule. I saw that steeplechase bell fiasco, what a horrible thing to find out "Oh, wait what, i didn't win unless i run another lap?" I wonder if they have bell-ringing training camp. "OK, in today's training, we're going to count down from 8 to 1. When we get to 1, ring the bell."
jhudak - sure, you have speed, you are at the point of having a solid training, a little bit of more miles will not hurt - few long runs with last 30 minutes of moderate/hard effort will be totally beneficial. And then we will see. But again - I am probably the only one who is trying to convince people to run their next marathon based on the results of the previous one. But nobody listens - everybody wants to run it based on some magical formula
Marby - thanks for the write up! Still confused by the fade in the second half - your training long runs didn't indicate that. My only explanation it was not your day - which happens quite a lot.
flavio - one part I do not understand - how you guys able to run 7:18 pace for 19 miles in the middle of training cycle with 60-70 miles weeks and then doubt you can run measly sub 3 marathon? Huh? Seriously - if I had an LR like this I would stop training and just waiting for my sub 3 marathon day . Re 5:38 mile in Disneyworld - yes, I was running kind of on the streets but on a sidewalk - believe it or not, US cities have some sidewalks too in some places, like all the European countries have them everywhere - so, it will be difficult for a car to repeat that - I mean, driving on a sidewalk - and if they do it on the street, I will just flag them.
JTR - sure, will have to wait until April to hear some wisdom My buddy kayry ran Western States ion 2015 in 23:55 - just 5 minutes off from not getting a silver buckle That was his bucket list race, so, there is no way in hell he is going to repeat that stunt
Steve - so what, it's great - just use those few months to build upon what you already have. And great idea to run couple of half marathons if possible - great tune ups and check of the readiness.
OMR - not sure more time (not more miles which is more important) and slower is better than less time and faster