2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 352 times)

flavio1980


Intl. correspondent

    Steve - on the bright side you have an almost automatic marathon PR when you run it again.

     

    Calbears - we’re talking about different things. I lack the muscular endurance to complete a 26 mile run, which I hope to build during this training cycle. (I've even tried to easy run a marathon a few years back and still failed).

    It’s pointless to run 23 miles on pace then slow to a crawl the last 3.

    PRs: 5K 17:56.7 (2021) 9.86K 36:40 (2020) HM 1:21:59 (2021)

    Up next: 3 countries marathon - Oct 10th

    Tool to generate Strava weekly

    OMR


      Steve: Good to see that you have a plan moving forward, and have come out of the race cancellation depression.

       

      cal: If you are not already aware, there is a thing called “cold beverage-induced vasovagal syncope,” which can happen as a result of drinking an ice-cold beverage when your body is really hot.  The cold beverage causes the vagus nerve to send signals to the brain, causing your heart rate and blood pressure to drop, potentially causing you to faint.  So, it’s actually better to rehydrate with a room-temperature beverage, or to sip a cold beverage slowly.  Just thought I’d throw that out there in case you didn’t know it was a thing.

      CalBears


         

        cal: If you are not already aware, there is a thing called “cold beverage-induced vasovagal syncope,” which can happen as a result of drinking an ice-cold beverage when your body is really hot.  The cold beverage causes the vagus nerve to send signals to the brain, causing your heart rate and blood pressure to drop, potentially causing you to faint.  So, it’s actually better to rehydrate with a room-temperature beverage, or to sip a cold beverage slowly.  Just thought I’d throw that out there in case you didn’t know it was a thing.

         

        Wow!! Interesting... Thanks for the info - will be careful in the future. This was not the first time I drank cold beverage (beer, Coke) after a long run. Looks like you have to be "hot" to some certain degree - so, that awful scenario occurs. Trying to remember last times when I fainted - I think the common denominators were heat and extreme tiredness after a run (once it was right after I finished 100K) and cold beer (not after 100K though). There were couple of other cases long time ago with low blood pressure - do not remember why it was back then. By any chance do you know what to do in such cases if ER is out of reach? Smile

         

        flavio - not convincing - if you can run 18-20 miles at decent pace week after week at 60-70 mpw, why do you mention some muscular issue at mile 23? What is so special about it? Then just run couple of 26 miles LRs during training to convince your body it's ok to run that distance at decent pace. Not convincing...

        paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

            By any chance do you know what to do in such cases if ER is out of reach? Smile

           

          OMR's info was spot-on.

           

          Cal - my advice to you in particular

          If you feel woozy (like you might faint) after heat/heavy exertion.... lie down immediately (so you don't fall and hurt yourself)... rest and cool off for a while while lying down (you might pass out, be covered with cold sweat, have slow/faint pulse for a while, even a mini-"seizure")... you'll feel better in 20-30min.  Don't bother going to the ER. (Of course, it's always advisable to get routine checkups once in a while at your age )

          OMR


            Looks like you have to be "hot" to some certain degree - so, that awful scenario occurs. Trying to remember last times when I fainted - I think the common denominators were heat and extreme tiredness after a run (once it was right after I finished 100K) and cold beer (not after 100K though). There were couple of other cases long time ago with low blood pressure - do not remember why it was back then. By any chance do you know what to do in such cases if ER is out of reach? Smile

             

            Yes, I think, to your internal temperature having to be elevated, but to what degree, I don’t know.  I’m guessing that would be specific to both the individual and the scenario for a given circumstance, meaning that just because this didn’t happen once, it doesn’t mean it won’t ever happen, and also that just because it did happen once, it doesn’t mean it would happen every time.  I’ve never experienced this, although I’ve occasionally felt light-headed after a sauna, probably because of the drop in blood pressure.

             

            As for what to do, I was going to say I have no idea, but thanks to rovatti, I do now!  

            flavio1980


            Intl. correspondent

              Calbears - Would you please confirm, was my run today a Medium Long Run or a Long Run?

               

              me - Big week but approaching a red line. I've asked the coach for an easier week next week.

              The 20 miler today was tough, very tough, especially the last 30 minutes.

              Weekly for period: From: 07/12/2021 To 07/18/2021

              Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
              in ft
              07/13 9 miles last 4 progression down to HMP 9.01 14.50 01:09:21 07:42 04:47 157
              07/14 Morning Run 9.50 15.29 01:17:18 08:08 05:03 249
              07/15 12x(2min@5k 1minE) + 6x(30s on + 20s off) 10.22 16.45 01:16:54 07:31 04:40 49
              07/16 Morning Run 9.01 14.49 01:12:28 08:03 05:00 528
              07/17 7mi + 4 hard strides 7.20 11.58 00:59:30 08:16 05:08 344
              07/18 Morning Run 20.01 32.20 02:37:53 07:53 04:54 125

              Total distance: 64.95mi

              PRs: 5K 17:56.7 (2021) 9.86K 36:40 (2020) HM 1:21:59 (2021)

              Up next: 3 countries marathon - Oct 10th

              Tool to generate Strava weekly

              CalBears


                flavio - yes, that is solid LR, if I remember correctly, when I was much younger, we called anything longer than 16 miles a long run, everything between 11 and 16 was an MLR. But, I know, I know, you younger people don't care about that stuff - that's why we periodically hear about somebody running 5K mini-marathon . Solid week, and great call on dialing stuff down if you feel like it.

                 

                Interesting week for me. Totally on an impulse decided to change my training structure - under influence one of the runners I know who was a follower of low HR training at one point. So, he changed the way he trains and I, after years and years of running on a slower side, decided to make a change too - at least for awhile - and see what happens. So, basically will try to run 1 hour - 1:15 (will probably come to 8-10 miles run) in an HR range of 145-150 (my HR range for most of my runs is 125-135). Then there is a long run - 2-3 hours (will see on that later, depends on how I am going to feel). Next, or the week after next one run should be in a range of 160-165 HR (which is close to my marathon HR). The idea is to make 145 HR my base HR for running (raise the lower border). Not sure for how long it will last - will try to make it up to Boston in October and then will make a decision on its future. Also, bought Stryd footpod finally - will see how it is useful after collecting some data (90 days recommended) - so far looks and feels complicated Smile.

                 

                My week:

                 

                Mo - off

                Tu - 9 @7:45 - 5 x 1 mile 400 jog @6:10,6:15,6:16,6:09,5:57

                We - 8.18 @7:29

                Th - 8.17 @7:28

                Fr - 8.20 @7:35  am  /  2.01 @9:39

                Sa - 6.6 @7:54

                Su - 19.10 @8:12

                ===

                Total: 61.4 miles

                paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                JTReeves


                  Flavio: Another strong week for you. We were thinking the same thing for long run distance today. You were faster but I beat you on climbing. 

                   

                  Cal: I'm surprised with your change in training strategy. I guess mostly because that type of higher HR everyday training goes so much against the Hadd method, which I associate primarily with you (maybe not correctly, but I think you are/were a follower of that training at some points). But it will be an interesting experiment. How did you feel after this week?

                   

                  If anyone is interested, Francois D'Haene is on strava and you can look at his Hardrock 100 run (he just won it in course record time). What a course: lowest elevation is ~8000 feet, highest is around 14,000 feet, and around 31,000 feet of climbing.   https://www.strava.com/activities/5641739521/overview

                   

                  My week: The super humid weather continued all week, with today being the worst. I think this was the worst conditions I ever did a long run. Drank 48 ounces of liquids during the run but still lost several pounds. Just need to remember this will pay off when it cools down (if it ever does...).

                   

                  Weekly for period: From: 07/12/2021 To 07/18/2021

                  Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                  in ft
                  7/13 Morning Run 10.16 16.34 1:24:46 8:21 5:11 528
                  7/14 Morning Run w/ 4 mi tempo 12.51 20.13 1:37:20 7:47 4:50 627
                  7/15 Morning Run 10.07 16.20 1:26:40 8:36 5:21 594
                  7/16 Morning Run 10.12 16.29 1:22:39 8:10 5:04 528
                  7/18 Long run w/ hills 20.02 32.21 2:45:03 8:15 5:07 1578

                  Total distance: 62.88 mi

                  2:52:16 (2018)

                  darkwave


                  Mother of Cats

                    Flavio- good on you for knowing when to ease up (and having the confidence to do so).   And congrats on the 20 miler!

                     

                    Calbears - so no easy runs?  Everything's in that new HR range or higher?

                     

                    JTReeves - I need to dig it up, but there is some good writing on the benefits of training in heat.  It's not altitude training, but it does increase your blood volume.

                     

                    My week:

                     

                    51 miles running, 1:50 hours pool-running, and 500 yards swimming.
                    M: 10 miles, including a track workout of 2x1600m at tempo effort with 3:00 recovery, and 2x200m at mile effort with full recovery in 6:38, 6:33, 42, and 42. Followed with leg strengthwork.
                    T: 7 miles very easy on treadmill (9:38) and streaming yoga.
                    W: Off (getting scoped out)
                    Th: 80 minutes pool-running and upper body weights/core.
                    F: 7 miles easy (9:48), drills and 4 hill strides, streaming yoga, and 3 miles very easy on treadmill (9:40)
                    Sa: 12 miles, including 8 Iwo Jima hill repeats (~2 minutes up, 90 second jog, 25 seconds downhill stride, 80 second jog). Followed with leg strengthwork, 500 yards recovery swimming, and 30 minutes pool-running.
                    Su: 12 miles easy (9:38) plus drills and then streaming yoga.

                     

                    Got an upper endoscopy (camera down the front hatch) and colonoscopy (camera up the other way) on Wednesday morning.  I was amused when I checked in that the waiting room had magazines.  And that they were all from the early spring of 2020.

                     

                    Nothing scary was seen on either one - they did see some inflammation in the last part of my large intestine (which has been there before) and also some inflammation in the last part of my stomach (the antrum).  I'm not a doctor, but I'm guessing that the stomach inflammation might be associated with the nausea and fatigue and iron/folate malabsorption issues I've been having for a while.  So now I just wait to see what the lab results are and what the doctor says.

                     

                    At least I hopefully don't have to eat lime jello again for another 2 years.

                    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                     

                    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                    jhudak55


                      Cal: I'm interested to see how your change to running by heart rate will effect your fitness. Is your theory that running at a higher heart rate will make each run a bit more quality?

                       

                      Flavio: Nice week. You've done a couple weeks in a row of most mileage ever, correct? Sounds like you and your coach are doing the right thing with a down week.

                       

                      JT: I'm with you on the heat/humidity. I find myself trying to rearrange my week in order to get any quality in on the least hot/humid days.

                       

                      DW: I'd be really interested in the heat training/increase of blood volume article if you can find it.

                       

                      My week:

                      58.1 miles

                       

                      M: 4 miles easy (9:11)

                      T: 6.4 miles with 5 x ~3 minute hills

                      W: 12 mile MLR (8:33)

                      T: 7.5 miles aerobic (8:11)

                      F: 5.2 miles recovery (9:34)

                      S: 7.5 miles aerobic (8:34)

                      S: 15.4 mile long run (8:07)

                       

                      Ran a hill workout on Tuesday and got out much too fast on the first rep causing each of the following reps to be slower. I just need more practice at good workout pacing. Long run yesterday was decent until the heat started to catch up with me at the end, decided to cut my marathon effort section a bit short (ran 6 miles instead of 8 at marathon effort) when my heart rate continued to creep up. I have a slightly larger volume week this week so I didn't want to go to the well for those last two miles. 

                      darkwave


                      Mother of Cats

                        Driveby:

                         

                        https://www.trailrunnermag.com/training/trail-tips-training/training-in-hot-conditions-may-enhance-fitness-and-performance

                        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                         

                        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                        JMac11


                        Taper Czar

                          Driveby:

                           

                          https://www.trailrunnermag.com/training/trail-tips-training/training-in-hot-conditions-may-enhance-fitness-and-performance

                           

                          One thing I've always struggled with these articles is it focuses on all of the benefits to your blood, which is true, but none of the harm to your speed/strength. If I only ran in 100F 70DP conditions, I would never be able to run anything within MP+30 for extended periods of time in that weather. Does that mean my legs can handle the beating of running at higher speeds in a race? I would imagine a good portion of our training is getting our muscles ready for the beating over a marathon distance and I can't see how training in heat allows for that. Maybe it works very well for 5K/10K.

                           

                          That concept I believe has led to something similar with altitude: live high, train low, i.e. why those sleeping chambers were created to recreate sleeping in altitude.

                           

                          JT - how do you get that much liquid down during a run? Are you stashing water bottles throughout your course?

                           

                          Cal - very interesting. I tried slower running two summers ago, running more like MP+2:30, and ended up hating it and kept getting slower. I now run closer to MP+1:30 (in good weather) and find it works very well for me. Always good to keep trying new stuff!

                           

                          Me - I will start posting here more regularly in a week or two as my CIM training kicks in.

                          5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                           

                          Next Race: Cow Harbor 10K (9/18)

                          JTReeves


                            DW: Thanks for the article. I'd read bits and pieces about that effect but it's nice to read a dedicated article on the subject.

                             

                            jhudak: Good job getting it done in the heat/humidity. I think you and DW have it even worse down in DC. And I do the same thing, checking the forecast for the coolest day for a workout. Though the past few weeks there has been no point since every day has been pretty much equally awful.

                             

                            JMac: Will be nice to have you posting here again! Have you finished Out of Thin Air? Regarding the fluids, yesterday was a rare loop course run for me, specifically to allow being able to drink at multiple points. Most of my long runs are out and back but even for those, if it's really hot/humid, I'll plant bottles the day before.

                            2:52:16 (2018)

                            CalBears


                              JTR - decent week from you. When do you start your next training cycle and what structure/plan are you planning to use?

                               

                              As for me and Hadd - believe it or not, I am going to use something very close to Hadd training, just using higher HR numbers. The guy you I was referring to, Tom, had a theory that Hadd had a success with mostly runners who are pretty young and for whom Hadd's formula of HR Max minus 50 are very close to their MP HR rate (at least that's how I understand it). So, basically, some guy's Max HR is 200 and his MP HR is 155-160. So, per Hadd's formula, all easy runs for that guy would be at 150 bpm - just only 5-10 bpm lower than MP HR rate. I was doing all my runs at 130-135 bpm, which is 30-35 bpm lower than my MP HR. Hence - the experiment, will up my base line HR for most of the runs and see how it will work out.

                               

                              DW - I missed on the issue you have with all these colonoscopy issues - what is it about? Something that was negatively impacting your running?

                               

                              Re your question on intensity - no, of course not - you will have to react on how your body feels, right? So far, so good, I didn't notice much difference in impact - actually, my LR was the best I've ever had so far since I started more or less serious running in March. But still - LR was at a lesser HR and I will be running recovery runs if I see an overload by higher HR running.

                               

                              jhudak - your training is very solid, do you use Pfitz as a structure for your training? Looking at your last weeks, I would say, if you never broke sub 3 before, I would try to train around 70 mpw, I think (to my amateur view) you need longer LRs 7:50-8:00 pace approximately - at least that's how I got my first sub 3. As for changes to my runs - yeah, you could say that, that there will be more quality, though there is a theory that everything ran between 7 and 7:40 pace is a dead zone Smile

                               

                              JMac - wow, great news - looks like I will see you again this year - that's very cool. Thinking about new PR at CIM? You might see me in NY next year, at least I keep that possibility in mind - would love to run NY (and Chicago again). And yes, I was on a slow runs training curve for a long time - really excited to try something new, something different - not a fact that I will last for a long time, but at least I will try and then say - it didn't work for me (or vice versa Smile

                              paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                              JTReeves


                                Thanks for the explanation of your training Cal; now it seems more reasonable. I guess just see how it works out and if you start feeling tired just make some of the runs easier/lower HR. Should be an interesting experiment!

                                 

                                You asked about my next training cycle...it has already begun! About 3 weeks in out of 16. Still not following an exact plan; it will be more or less what I have done in the past, but this time higher volume and with a bit more focus on MP workouts (though not huge blocks at the end of a LR, more shorter blocks with an easy recovery in between if in a long run, or a longer block if it is the mid-week workout). I'll keep the threshold workouts as usual.  As always, I am open to critiques of what I am doing, if you think it isn't the right approach please let me know (this applies to everyone, not just Cal )

                                2:52:16 (2018)