2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 423 times)

Running Problem


Problem Child

    CIM is going to be a finish line party with keen and JMac there this year. I’ll probably be last to the party and I say that as a compliment to the party. I’ll probably be solo this year so I can hang out and do whatever it is online friends runners do after meeting in real life races. 

    JMac family trip or just you? Oh and I’d be willing to bet if you did the temperature training above you’d SCORCH CIM this year and bring home a big PR.  Mostly because the course is forgiving and has great weather typically.

    Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

    VDOT 51

    5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

    JMac11


    Milkman

      JTR - I hope for this cycle you learned that endless long runs may not be for you. More runs at MP might be a big plus. Would also consider either long tempos or cruise intervals, although long runs with MP is very similar. Higher volume is always a plus! What other takewaways did the group give you after the last marathon (I feel like andres had some good one) and which ones are you accepting and and which ones rejecting?

       

      I am not done with Out of Thin Air yet. I'm a slow reader. Used to do most of it on the subway but that doesn't happen anymore with work from home!

       

      Cal - would be great to see you in NYC next year! We'll see where I am with my running on whether I want to actually run it. They need to bring back time qualifiers.

       

      Regarding CIM, I am far from PR shape but it's a long way to go. I feel like I won't know whether I can go for a PR until about 6-8 weeks to go. That's when things start clicking for me. But for now, I'm closer to 2:45 shape, even adjusted for weather. My volume was way down last year and early this year.

       

      Brew - no family, just me again, at least for now. Wife and baby may come last minute and we can do a family trip after. We'll see. She has a cousin in San Jose so it's possible.

      5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

       

      Next Race: Unknown 

      JTReeves


        JTR - I hope for this cycle you learned that endless long runs may not be for you. More runs at MP might be a big plus. Would also consider either long tempos or cruise intervals, although long runs with MP is very similar. Higher volume is always a plus! What other takewaways did the group give you after the last marathon (I feel like andres had some good one) and which ones are you accepting and and which ones rejecting?

         

        Ha! My long runs really get under your skin JMac!  I did get some takeaways from the group feedback:

        1. Higher volume (both mileage and quality). My last cycle I think I was undertrained. Looking back at my best training cycles, the mileage was higher (closer to 70 mpw, last one was only 59 mpw). Also, the number of workouts my last cycle was the lowest I ever had. I was consciously trying to avoid overtraining but went a bit too far.

        2. No big MP blocks at the end of big LRs. I would do things like 10 at MP at the end of a 22 miler. Those LRs really burned me out. This time the LRs with MP will be in smaller blocks, like the 2 x 3mi I put in an 18 miler recently. Similar to what Darkwave does.

        3. Shift any bigger MP blocks like 10 @ MP to mid-week workouts. This is like what you do, a warm-up (2-3 mi) and then the MP block. Then done. Hopefully that way I get in the training and confidence at MP but without overdoing it.

         

        Those are the key changes. My other workouts, mostly threshold stuff, will stay pretty similar (e.g. 2 mi reps, straight tempos of 4-6 mi). Regarding long runs, I'll still be doing a good amount of them, though the majority will be at moderate/easy pace. I really enjoy the LRs and if I exclude those monster ones with big MP blocks I don't think they are harmful. I'll be keeping close tabs on how I feel and morning resting HR to make sure I'm not overtraining. But don't hold back: air your grievances Frank Costanza-style if you think I'm on the wrong track! Can't guarantee I'll heed all advice but I'll certainly consider it.

        2:52:16 (2018)

        JMac11


        Milkman

          Ha. They don't get under my skin, I just don't think they're generally as beneficial as people think. As someone in your position who hasn't PR'd in the last 3 (4?) races, why not change it up? You clearly have the endurance needed for the race in terms of long runs given your history of running so many of them. I've said before I think people view the long run as the solution to all their marathon problems when it's going to be near the bottom of the list for people who have run 5+ marathons.

           

          It's funny that in terms of anyone on this board who could benefit from more of them, it's me! I probably don't run enough, and you probably run too many. My guess is the right happy middle is something like long runs every other week, maybe up to 2 out of 3 weeks.

           

          You do run a good number of 3x2 and 4x2 workouts, that is true, so you're good on that front. Overall I think you have a great plan. You are right that running 20 mile long runs with 10 @ MP is incredibly difficult so I'm glad you are paring that down.

          5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

           

          Next Race: Unknown 

          Running Problem


          Problem Child

            JMac San Jose!!?!?!?!?!?!?! I grew up in that general area (Oak Grove/Santa Teresa High School districts) before moving south...then East, then West, and East again before I lost track.

            Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

            VDOT 51

            5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

            OMR


              Was out of town for an extended weekend, so a bit behind here...

               

              flavio:  That's a solid week, I would also have been tired for the end of that 20M LR, especially with the slight incline for the finish.  Are you starting to feel niggles creeping in, or just fatigued?

               

              cal:  Interesting change to your training, and a pretty significant one.  You must have a pretty high HRmax?  I'll be curious to see how you feel after about 2 more weeks.

               

              JT:  Nice week, there must have been something funky going on with your HR monitor on that tempo run(?).  Maybe too much sweat for it to work properly?

               

              Dwave:  Looks like you're getting back into the swing of things, hope the lab results come back OK.

               

              jhudak:  I have the same problem with hill workouts...taking the first rep or two too fast, especially with longer reps.  Good call on cutting the MP effort a little short in the heat so that you don't compromise this week of training.

               

              My week:

               

              S:  Rest

              M:  11.2M @ 8:03 w/6 x 3min @ 10K effort (6:37 average)

              T:  8M @ 8:44

              W:  13.1M @ 8:01

              T:  4.6M @ 8:36

              F:  8.1M Trail Run @ 8:51

              S:  8M @ 8:39 w/10 x 60-75sec Hill Repeats

               

              Total:  53M

              JTReeves


                Nice week OMR. I'm not sure why it happens, but I get that type of an HR plot every so often. It's always the same; like the HR is on autopilot on a steady path to 161 bpm, where it stays for the remainder of the run, except when I stop running; those dips are when I stopped. It's always 161 bpm when it does this. Here's the plot from that workout. Does this happen to anyone else? I have a Garmin 235.

                 

                Anyway, when it does this the HR data is useless. Unfortunately this time it happened during a workout, which is when I am most interested in looking at the HR data.

                 

                May be an image of text that says '800 600 1:15:18 400 ft Dist: .9mi Elev: 245ft Grade: 0.0% Pace: 7:24/mi Heart Rate: 161 bpm 200 1.0mi 1.0 2.0mi 3.0mi 4.0mi 5.0mi 6.0mi 7.0mi 8.0mi 9.0mi Pace on 10.0 mi 11.0mi GAP Avg 12.0mi 7:47 mi Heart Rate on 7:37/mi Cadence 157 bpm 172 spm'

                2:52:16 (2018)

                  JT I have the 235 and and every so often will show 160s on a recovery run or very low on a tempo. Every few months I lose heart rate all together and have to do a reset

                  50+ PBs -  

                  5k 18.21 Hagley Parkrun  July 21      82.27 % age grade

                  10k TT 37.21 may 2nd 2021 strava run 82.51 % age grade

                  Half marathon  1.23.30 may 21 80.11 % age grade

                  " If you don't use it you lose it,  but if you use it, it wears out.

                  Somewhere in between is about right "      

                   

                  OMR


                    you might want to read this…

                     

                    https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/running-multisport/f/forerunner-230-235/208510/fr235-heart-rate-caps-at-161#pifragment-480=2

                     

                    Nice week OMR. I'm not sure why it happens, but I get that type of an HR plot every so often. It's always the same; like the HR is on autopilot on a steady path to 161 bpm, where it stays for the remainder of the run, except when I stop running; those dips are when I stopped. It's always 161 bpm when it does this. Here's the plot from that workout. Does this happen to anyone else? I have a Garmin 235.

                     

                    Anyway, when it does this the HR data is useless. Unfortunately this time it happened during a workout, which is when I am most interested in looking at the HR data.

                     

                    May be an image of text that says '800 600 1:15:18 400 ft Dist: .9mi Elev: 245ft Grade: 0.0% Pace: 7:24/mi Heart Rate: 161 bpm 200 1.0mi 1.0 2.0mi 3.0mi 4.0mi 5.0mi 6.0mi 7.0mi 8.0mi 9.0mi Pace on 10.0 mi 11.0mi GAP Avg 12.0mi 7:47 mi Heart Rate on 7:37/mi Cadence 157 bpm 172 spm'

                    JTReeves


                      JT I have the 235 ans and every so often will show 160s on a recovery run or very low on a tempo. Every few months I lose heart rate all together and have to do a reset

                       

                      Thanks Piwi. I also sometimes get a very low reading for a whole run, it's usually around 80 something. I've also done a reset and that always fixes it. No big deal, just kind of interesting.

                       

                      OMR, thanks for the link. I didn't see any concrete explanation in there for why it happens, but from this (and Piwi) it's clear that it's a common issue.

                      2:52:16 (2018)

                      darkwave


                      Mother of Cats

                         

                        DW - I missed on the issue you have with all these colonoscopy issues - what is it about? Something that was negatively impacting your running?

                         

                        a) since I have ulcerative colitis, I'm on the every other year plan for these thing anyway, so I was due.

                        b) ulcerative colitis is a disease of the large intestine.  Over the past year, I've developed deficiencies in iron (mild) and folate (significant) that can only be addressed by supplements - I don't seem to be able to keep them up by diet alone.  In the case of the folate, that's really odd.

                        c) folate and iron are both absorbed in the small intestine.  Which is not affected by UC but can be affected by Crohns disease.  So that's why I'm getting checked out.  Why am I having all these problems with nutritional deficiencies is the question we're trying to answer.

                         

                         

                        General observation on marathon training.  I would gently suggest that every regular poster on this threat (including myself), if not held in check, is going to train too much for a marathon rather than too little.

                         

                        Also - JTReeves I can't believe that you can plant bottles the day before and be sure they're there (and that they haven't been tampered with).  I'd honestly be worried that someone had messed with mine.  And it would be a non-issue anyway - I've set water bottles down for 10 minutes while I did drills, and noted them missing after.

                        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                         

                        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                        JTReeves


                          DW: I'm glad they did not find anything bad in the scoping, and hope the lab tests lead to some answers. Regarding planting bottles the day before long runs, it's an advantage of having routes essentially going through the woods. I guess a clever animal like a raccoon might take a Gatorade bottle or try to open it, but as far as tampering, I only plant unopened bottle of Gatorade or water, so if the seal was broken I'd notice.

                          2:52:16 (2018)

                          jhudak55


                             One thing I've always struggled with these articles is it focuses on all of the benefits to your blood, which is true, but none of the harm to your speed/strength. If I only ran in 100F 70DP conditions, I would never be able to run anything within MP+30 for extended periods of time in that weather. Does that mean my legs can handle the beating of running at higher speeds in a race? I would imagine a good portion of our training is getting our muscles ready for the beating over a marathon distance and I can't see how training in heat allows for that. Maybe it works very well for 5K/10K.

                             

                             

                            I hadn't even considered the effect on your legs due to all of your paces slowing. However, what I have never been able to wrap my head around is how long the increased blood volume due to training in hot conditions lasts. It seems that if you run a November/December marathon a lot of the gain from training all summer through the higher temperatures would be lost in October and November when the additional heat stressor is no longer present.

                             

                            Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong (quite possible because I have no science to back up my theory), but it is something I often ponder on days over 150 TDP.

                            jhudak55


                               

                              jhudak - your training is very solid, do you use Pfitz as a structure for your training? Looking at your last weeks, I would say, if you never broke sub 3 before, I would try to train around 70 mpw, I think (to my amateur view) you need longer LRs 7:50-8:00 pace approximately - at least that's how I got my first sub 3. As for changes to my runs - yeah, you could say that, that there will be more quality, though there is a theory that everything ran between 7 and 7:40 pace is a dead zone Smile

                               

                              Cal: Thanks. Yep, I'm currently following the Pfitz 18/70 plan with added recovery runs where he calls for rest days. Over the next couple of weeks I'll be working my way up to 70 MPW. Also, the long runs will definitely be getting longer, the first couple week of the plan eases you in, but I have plenty of 18+ long runs coming up. I appreciate the advice!

                              JMac11


                              Milkman

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                General observation on marathon training.  I would gently suggest that every regular poster on this threat (including myself), if not held in check, is going to train too much for a marathon rather than too little.

                                 

                                 

                                Going to exclude myself from that one. I am inherently lazy. Had no problem running 0 miles during the entire month of December. If I didn't have a plan built out, I would run way less than I should. Probably would sound weird to anyone outside of running since I am shooting to run 70-85 MPW for this next cycle, but still, it's more that I don't want to waste my time running 60 MPW and not PR when I can run a bit more and have a shot at it.

                                5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                                 

                                Next Race: Unknown