2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 420 times)

JTReeves


     

    Fall Marathons - New Jersey marathon just cancelled due to COVID. I am now officially back into worry mode. I cannot believe we are at this point. I'm especially worried about CIM given California is one of the more restrictive states.

     

    I've been worrying about this as well; now that a big one has been cancelled others may follow. As back-ups I registered for the Hamptons marathon on Oct. 2 and Northern Ohio on Oct. 31. The Hamptons one is more a bad weather option, since if something in CT is cancelled it's likely races in NY (that one is on Long Island) will also be cancelled. But Northern Ohio should go no matter what; they held the race last year. I know you prefer the big races but maybe you can find some others as back-ups; be a shame to waste a cycle with no race at all.

     

    BTW, have you seen that Bekele is running Berlin? Rumor has it he is thin and has been training in the Netherlands like he did prior to his 2019 effort. If he's not chunky and has been training well something special could happen. He may run a WR on pure hate for not being selected for the Olympic team  (can't blame him; didn't all 3 Ethiopian guys drop out?).

     

    Flavio: I hope the back is behaving now.

     

    Marby: Buggery on the curfew, but at least that should not affect your running schedule.

    2:52:16 (2018)

    JMac11


    Milkman

      I agree on having a backup. Right now I have Indy, but it's 4 weeks before CIM. I'll see if I can find anything good in late November or early December (maybe Philly?) Would love other recommendations from folks. There's a rock n roll marathon in TX in December, but those are notoriously poorly run.

       

      If Bekele comes out of the woodwork here and runs that WR, I will back down on my longevity take. Very disappointed in Ethiopia though after reading Out of Thin Air! I hate to say it as an American, but given all that went on with Rupp, I wasn't exactly rooting for him.

      5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

       

      Next Race: Unknown 

      Running Problem


      Problem Child

        JMac I honestly think CIM's success depends on the Governor recall. If Gavin Newsome wins he can keep controlling the state however he sees fit and this could include banning all gatherings unless they involve him personally. If he loses I could see any Governor replacing him never doing a lockdown again. CIM might just mandate proof of vaccination. As for a fall marathon, Death Valley has a flat out and back. Much farther/horrible logistics and definitely NOT going to have a pack to run with. The weather could be better though and the road might be comparable to running central park with absolutely no views or trees. I don't think they shut down the highway 100% either. Maybe just limit traffic for a few hours each way. What about Houston in January? It pushes back 6 weeks from CIM, but isn't it supposed to be fast?

         

         

        Ran last night because it was ONLY a 151 when I started. I could feel the smoke in the air. I woke up to a 175 (EPA number, Purple Air was 200-300. EPA now saws 197-300) and ash falling from the sky on to my truck. Today should be speed day. Such a WONDERFUL way to start training for a marathon. I'd take heat and humidity over air filled with ash and burning eyes/throat/ with itchy skin any day. 140F and a dew point of 10 would be better than AQI 200+. It has been over 150 for like 10 days now. I see other people running on Strava in town and even an ultra marathon went on with an AQI of 174. I haven't been locked up long enough to think unhealthy air is good enough for a race. This smoke is coming from a fire 150-200 miles away. I think most marathon training plans would tell me to reevaluate my goals if I couldn't train for 10 days. I don't think they took in to account fire.

        Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

        VDOT 51

        5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

        CalBears


          JTR - very solid week and awesome long run - again, I almost never was able to run MP pace during long runs - and you ran, looks like, even faster than MP. Amazingly, we do not have smoke problem here - there was half a day once where AQI was above 100, but all the other days, especially mornings, AQI is between 25 and 65 - which is totally fine, imho.

           

          DW - seriously, I noticed that reading your weeklies is like reading specifications for some of my software development tasks - many of the specs are much simpler than your weeklies Smile. And I thought running is a simple sport Smile.

           

          OMR - shingles vaccine... amazing...

           

          JMac - your Daniels stuff goes right after DW's weeklies, also not easy stuff to digest Smile. Yeah, it seems you have a long way to go  to your PR shape. Hopefully, smoke will not be a culprit for you as it is for us here (the multi-year drought we have here makes smokes a daily possibility Sad. Re "improvements" in my runs - nah, I do not think so - the difference is that I run at least 3 days at 145-150 bpm instead of 125-135 bpm in previous years - hence, the pace changes from 9 mpm to 7:40 mpm. Will try to continue with this until CIM and see what it will do to my results.

           

          New Jersey marathon cancellation - I am nothing but mad! I did my part of the deal - I've got vaccinated. Millions of other people did the vaccination too and expect that those stupid idiots stop "cancelling" our lives. If "unvaccinated" kamikaze wants to continue taking risks of getting covid, it's their business - why because of those stupid idiots my life should be placed on hold - let the unvaccinated "heroes" take their chances and just let other part of the people get their 3rd dose of boosters. My friend from a hospital here told me the ICU units are filled with patients, 99% of who are unvaccinated. So, I feel mad because of this continuing stupidness. This will be a sad thing if they start cancelling again. And that's why I will probably vote against Newsom. I wonder what are the news from the city of Boston? 

           

          jhudak - solid stuff for a drop week. I do not plan specifically for any particular number - I am checking how I feel after getting my mileage to a decent value and will go from there. I do not have any training blocks actually - I just run the same structure for the last 5-6 weeks and will continue with it probably until CIM time, if nothing else happens. Though, yes, 100 as a number looks good Smile.

           

          flavio - very good week for a person with so many troubles lately (you still have signatures from Italy all over your running Smile

           

          Marby - I was talking about this thread specifically, I am aware that US is not what it used to be and there is much bigger World out there, But here, in this small thread, the majority of runners still use miles - that's what I meant (I believe almost all the kms people migrated to sub 1:30 thread Smile The rest of your message made me confused...

          paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

          pepperjack


          pie man

            JMac I honestly think CIM's success depends on the Governor recall. If Gavin Newsome wins he can keep controlling the state however he sees fit and this could include banning all gatherings unless they involve him personally. If he loses I could see any Governor replacing him never doing a lockdown again. CIM might just mandate proof of vaccination. As for a fall marathon, Death Valley has a flat out and back. Much farther/horrible logistics and definitely NOT going to have a pack to run with. The weather could be better though and the road might be comparable to running central park with absolutely no views or trees. I don't think they shut down the highway 100% either. Maybe just limit traffic for a few hours each way. What about Houston in January? It pushes back 6 weeks from CIM, but isn't it supposed to be fast?

             

             

            Ran last night because it was ONLY a 151 when I started. I could feel the smoke in the air. I woke up to a 175 (EPA number, Purple Air was 200-300. EPA now saws 197-300) and ash falling from the sky on to my truck. Today should be speed day. Such a WONDERFUL way to start training for a marathon. I'd take heat and humidity over air filled with ash and burning eyes/throat/ with itchy skin any day. 140F and a dew point of 10 would be better than AQI 200+. It has been over 150 for like 10 days now. I see other people running on Strava in town and even an ultra marathon went on with an AQI of 174. I haven't been locked up long enough to think unhealthy air is good enough for a race. This smoke is coming from a fire 150-200 miles away. I think most marathon training plans would tell me to reevaluate my goals if I couldn't train for 10 days. I don't think they took in to account fire.

             

            I thought you were getting Caldor stuff today?  That's right over the line in El Dorado.

            11:11 3,000 (recent)

            Running Problem


            Problem Child

               

              I thought you were getting Caldor stuff today?  That's right over the line in El Dorado.

               

              The smoke map shows everything from California blowing this way. 300+ today until 18 mph winds picked up and blew some of it out for a few hours. Down below 200 now. It’s amazing how many people are saying ‘fuck it. If it’s going to be this bad for this long I’m just going to go outside and risk it.’

               

              I got excited for an AQI of under 120 this morning (2:30am) so you can imagine my surprise when I go for a run at 4:45 thinking I can get a workout in only to see white stuff falling from the sky. Thinking it's just my lack of sleep I kept going until I realized I was close enough to home to actually double check. pushing 150. Can't see much around me. So close to 150 I doubt the readings simply because white ash falling from the sky isn't normal. Another week lost.

              Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

              VDOT 51

              5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

              Marby


                08/16/2021 To 08/22/2021

                Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                in ft
                08/16 Morning Run 6.24 10.04 00:51:39 08:17 05:09 217
                08/17 6x1mi 10.51 16.91 01:17:26 07:22 04:35 223
                08/18 Morning Run 6.33 10.18 00:52:00 08:13 05:06 213
                08/19 2k & 10x600m 9.51 15.30 01:11:08 07:29 04:39 203
                08/20 Morning Run 5.01 8.05 00:42:05 08:24 05:14 161
                08/21 Morning Run 7.74 12.45 01:04:59 08:24 05:13 203
                08/22 15k@MP 16.18 26.04 01:59:50 07:24 04:36 991

                Total distance: 61.51mi

                 

                Tue miles were off a 400m jog in 6:36, 6:30, 6:35, 6:39, 6:26 & 6:30.

                 

                Thu was 2k at 6:48 then 10 x 600m off a 200m jog.  Reps in a range between 5:54-6:13. That would have to be the toughest workout I have done in several years!  I was getting just over a minute recovery and as was pointed out on strava, would have been better off slowing those down. After the 7th rep that was showing and I had to walk some of the recovery. The washup is I’ve worked a system that hasn’t had much attention, off the back of other quality and will be stronger for it.

                 

                Sun mara pace was done in windy conditions, a bit over half was downwind/neutral at 6:45 and felt cruisy.  Then into the wind at 6:56 where effort and heart rate were drifting higher.

                10K 41:35 (2016), Half 1:27:01 (2015) Marathon 3:02:48 (2015)

                JTReeves


                  Marby: Your coach is tough...that 10 x 600 workout sounds brutal, and not helped by running a 2000m beforehand! Had I done 10 x 600 I would take a 400m jog recovery and even then it would be tough. Nice job on the long run with MP.

                   

                  Another week of miserable humidity here, with dew points at or above 70 deg F every day. I'm definitely ready for this to end. Today's long run I felt just dead for the last 6 miles or so; probably due to dehydration. Although I had a lot of water before and during the run I must have sweated 10 lbs due to the heat and humidity. Sure enough my pee was dark yellow afterwards. In these conditions it seems impossible to hydrate enough to compensate for the volume lost to sweat. I'm dreaming about running on a nice cold, clear winter morning...

                   

                  Weekly for period: From: 08/16/2021 To 08/22/2021

                  Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                  in ft
                  08/16 Morning Run 6.25 10.06 56:01 8:58 5:34 420
                  08/17 Morning Run 10.15 16.34 1:24:04 8:17 5:09 584
                  08/18 Morning Run w/5x1mi (6:01-6:10) + 1mi hard (5:46, downhill) 12.71 20.44 1:28:32 6:58 4:20 548
                  08/19 Morning Run 8.02 12.90 1:07:05 8:22 5:12 459
                  08/20 Morning Run 11.04 17.76 1:33:28 8:28 5:16 1096
                  08/21 Trail run 8.23 13.24 1:14:21 9:02 5:37 535
                  08/22 Long run 20.15 32.41 2:46:40 8:16 5:09 1280

                  Total distance: 76.55 mi

                  2:52:16 (2018)

                  CalBears


                    Marby - 3 hard workouts a week... I do not know man... Seems too much to me. The only excuse is that you are running 60 miles Smile And, again - that "MP" workout... There is no way the second half of that workout was MP effort - I can clearly see you had it at HMP effort - I think you need to be aware of it. That's why some people use Heart Rate monitors - to keep yourself honest in understanding they cannot keep 178 bpm for the whole marathon distance. You need to get to 168-170 zone and see your real MP pace.

                     

                    JTR - you and I kind of have similar week's structure with basically two workouts. Though I ran at a moderate effort We, Th and Fr. And like you, I faded badly today during Long Run - the first half was so good, but the second one... I think dehydration? I don't drink water during my runs and it usually it is not an issue (my pee is of regular color Smile, but today somehow something was not too good.

                     

                    My week:

                     

                    Mo - 5.05 @10:02 am / 5:05 @10:10 pm

                    Tu - 10.22 @7:30 with 6x1 mile 400 jog (6:24,6:21,6:14,6:16,6:16,5:57)

                    We - 10.25 @7:34

                    Th - 10.24 @7:25

                    Fr - 10.21 @7:23

                    Sa - 10.26 @9:15

                    Su - 19.05 @7:59

                    ===

                    Total: 80.3 miles

                    paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                    darkwave


                    Mother of Cats

                       

                      The smoke map shows everything from California blowing this way. 300+ today until 18 mph winds picked up and blew some of it out for a few hours. Down below 200 now. It’s amazing how many people are saying ‘fuck it. If it’s going to be this bad for this long I’m just going to go outside and risk it.’

                       

                      I'm sorry - that sounds absolutely awful.  And I think humidity doesn't compare at all.  When the humidity is really high, you just run slow and feel awful.  You're not doing damage to your lungs.

                       

                      Marby - I agree with JTReeves - that 10x600m sounds very very tough.  Looks like the 600m were at about VO2Max pace for you, with half-time recoveries.  So quite hard.

                       

                      JTReeves - glad you were able to get out there before the storm, and also that you are not getting a direct hit.  as I recall Steve (poster formerly known as Squirrel, as opposed to our OMR/Steve) lives on Long Island - I hope he's doing well.

                       

                      My week:

                       

                      61 miles running, 3 hours pool-running, and 1500 yards swimming.
                      M: 90 minutes pool-running and streaming yoga.
                      T: 11.5 miles, including a track workout of 6x800 in 3:10, 3:09, 3:08, 3:06, 3:05, 3:00. Mostly 2:2x-2:4x recovery after the 800s (3:11 recovery between 5th and 6th reps). Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.
                      W: 8 miles easy outside (9:39) plus drills and four strides, then upper body weights/core, followed by 4 miles very easy on treadmill (9:29).
                      Th: 90 minutes pool-running and streaming yoga.
                      Fr: 12 miles on the treadmill with a tempo workout of 7x5 minutes at tempo effort (7:09 pace) with 1 minute jog recovery in between. Then did leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.
                      Sa: 10.5 miles very easy outside (9:19) plus drills and four hill sprints, followed by upper body weights/core.
                      Su: 14.5 miles progressive, split as first 5 averaging 9:41 pace, next 4 averaging 8:13, next 5.5 averaging 7:15, and then a half-mile jog. Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.

                       

                      Starting to feel significantly better, even though this was a very humid week.   This is week 3 of being on the Lialda, and it really seems to be helping my energy levels.   I'm starting to feel more optimistic that I can turn stuff around and actually race well this fall.  Right now, my racing plans are:

                      a) either Fifth Avenue Mile or Cherry Blossom 10 Miler or Cherry Blossom 5K on Sept 12 (JMac or Rovatti - any insight into whether masks will be required while racing at 5th Avenue? - I've gotten mixed messages from NYRR).

                      b) Columbus Half-Marathon on October 17 (I was entered in New Jersey, but that got cancelled)

                      c) Indy Monumental Marathon on November 7 (with Harrisburg on November 14 as a back-up).

                       

                      Regarding the cruise interval workout on Friday - last week Jmac and I had a discussion about the recoveries, and whether that 1 minute should be at a slow jog or standing, if you're following Daniels strictly.  So I went back and looked at my copies of Daniels Running Formula (I have the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th editions).  From my reading, in the discussions of cruise intervals, he doesn't specify one way or the other.

                       

                      But then I looked at the schedules, and lo and behold, for interval and repetition work he prescribes "jogs" between the fast parts, while for cruise interval work he specifies "rest" between the fast parts (edited to add: looking back now, Jmac made this exact point a few days ago.  I was just reading while multitasking, and so overlooked that - sorry)  So from that you could read that "rest" is not jogging.    Or maybe read that he leaves it up to the runner to decide how to rest best.  JMac - do you have anything where he specifies that the recovery between cruise intervals should not be jogging?

                       

                      It's interesting to me because there's differences in how you recover - the jogging means that my heart rate doesn't drop as much, but also helps my body clear lactate.  If managing lactate is the goal of the workout, then I can see how standing rest makes more sense.  OTOH, I have a personal dislike for standing rest because I really stiffen up.

                       

                      If I end up on my treadmill a third week in a row (hopefully not) I may play with some very slow walking rest on the treadmill, and see how that changes things.

                       

                      (Cal - was that analytical enough for you?  Wink

                      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                       

                      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                      Running Problem


                      Problem Child

                        Darkwave the third edition says 1 minute rest. Nothing about standing still or walking or iogging. I just checked. Yes the air quality is horrible. Today I was looking at 300+ in the morning, and the current 1 hour average  (hazardous is 300+), but it’s down below 225 for the realt time (current less than 10 minute period) so it’s just very unhealthy. My Saturday run partner (sometimes) kept his running streak. Outdoor. In 330+ AQI. The worst part is just being unwilling to go outside. A 2 hour drive west sounds appealing. 

                        evem with the poor air, and some luck I landed 46.5 miles. A little surprised, and I was HOPING to get something about an hour long today.

                        Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                        VDOT 51

                        5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10

                        OMR


                          Marby:  That's an impressive week.  Did you feel as though you recovered from each of the previous workouts to be read for the next one?  and do you have another one coming up in a day or two, or is your coach giving you a slightly easier week this week?

                           

                          JT:  Solid week, bummer that the humidity hasn't broken yet.  A front came through on Friday for us, and they are saying our summer heatwave may have come to an end.  Nice to be running with dew points in the 40s-50s again.

                           

                          cal:  What happened to the pace on Friday?  Just a recovery run, feeling tired, or more elevation than normal?  That's a lot of running at 7:2x or 7:3x pace!

                           

                          Dwave:  I, too, have noticed that for cruise intervals, Daniels says "rest," and for I-pace he says "recovery."  For the I-pace stuff, he does say (in the 2nd edition) that the recovery should be whatever works best for the individual runner to prepare for the next interval (usually an easy jog as standing still or walking may make the runner stiff), but nothing is said about the "rest" for I-pace.  But I had always interpreted that as walking or something that is "not running."

                           

                          My week:

                           

                          S:  5M @ 8:58 Trail run

                          M:  10.7M @ 7:57 w/2.8M progression (7:08)

                          T:  8.4M @ 8:19

                          W:  Rest

                          T:  8.5M @ 8:13

                          F:  Rest

                          S:  14.1M @ 7:42 w/2.1 @ HM effort (6:47)

                           

                          Total:  46.7M

                          CalBears


                            Marby - felt guilty about my response to your Sunday's run - re-read again - you didn't specify clearly if it was MP effort or MP pace - now I am more inclined to think it was MP pace. So, my apologies. Though, I still do not think any workout would be better if it was related to an effort of the distance you are running for. I definitely can run 6 mpm some days, but I also definitely know I cannot run that pace some days either. Though DPS seems to know his pace on any day Smile Well, probably when I was in my 20s or 30s I "knew" much more that I know now Smile

                             

                            DW - solid week. It's impressive that you are so consistent despite some health issues. That bodes well for the time when you feel good again. Cannot chime on Daniels as I didn't do his workouts for ages, but I know that I never stop after an interval or I don't even walk - only jogging, though the jog is very slow - 10-12 mpm. No cancellations of races here - I guess RP is right - they won't do anything until after governor elections mid September. Boston seems to be still on schedule - they sent an email few days ago promising to publish instruction on vaccination and tests statuses - it will be interesting what they will require. (btw, they already asked about vaccination status in a separate email and one of the questions was - "can you prove your vaccination?")

                             

                            RP - I know it's horrible, I still remember that fall of 2018 when we had fires in Paradise, CA. Somehow the wind direction was very unfortunate for Bay area and we struggled for 3 or 4 weeks, though I do not think the AQI was above 300 - and it still was absolutely horrible. They cancelled many races that November and CIM was under question until few days left - and it was not cancelled only because it started to rain like a few days before the race. I cannot imagine the hopelessness of this situation - covid is playing on nerves of all the people and an air when you have difficulties even to breathe, running is out of the questions. Somehow, here we still lucky not to have anything remotely bad - I think since the beginning of fires we only had one bad day - with AQI close to 200 and it lasted from afternoon till sunset only.

                             

                            OMR - good week with reasonable amount of harder workouts. I am glad to inform you that I think my HM pace is faster than 6:47 - surprisingly, fitness wise now, in August, I feel like I felt before CIMs for the last 3-4 years - so, if CIM happens I might really hit that 2:57 target (fingers crossed). What do you men by my Friday's pace? Did you mean Saturday? Because on Friday I had one of the best running so far - hitting 6:40-6:45 paces for 4 miles at 145-150 bpm range - which is for me considered as a moderate effort. Slow pace on Friday was in preparation for LR on Sunday - still didn't help too much as I faded badly during second half.

                            paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                            OMR


                              cal: Haha, yeah, I meant Saturday, not Friday.  I”m not at all surprised your HM effort is faster than 6:47.  You seem to be progressing well right now, so that shift to faster paces may have been the right move for you.

                              flavio1980


                              Intl. correspondent

                                Hi everyone, quick drop by:

                                Wednesday last week I woke up with a nasty back pain, like being crushed with a heavy weight. I got mad and just closed the week right then and there. Just stopped running for 5 days and tomorrow I'll get back to it. 

                                I'm back in Portugal now so I can join you on the heat complaining. I'm feeling considerably better at sea level. I reckon I did too much too son at altitude and then had altitude sickness for the whole duration of my stay in Colombia (Poor planning 😁). 

                                It did not help that altitude sickness symptoms are similar to covid. 2 negative antigen tests and one negative PCR test tell me it was really altitude sickness.

                                7 weeks to race day, I should arrive at race day alright if training works well from now on.

                                PRs: 1500 4:51 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

                                Up next: Rest and recover

                                Tool to generate Strava weekly