Forums >Racing>Building bulletproof legs?
In the past 3 races (running and cycling), I haven't hit the proverbial wall , but I've encountered the terrible cramps each race. During my most recent race, which was a marathon, I started experiencing the pre-cramp warning signs around mile 11. Coming off of a plantar fasciitis injury, I knew it was going to a struggle as I didn't have a strong finish to my training session but I didn't expect to blow up quite as hard as I did.
In any matter, how can I make my legs bulletproof? More mileage? More hills? Trail running? Strength training? Any advice or stories would be welcome!
5K: 18:43 (12/13) 10K: 42:50 (12/12) HM: 1:30:10 (3/14) M: 3:34:46 (5/14)
All of the above and ... maybe electrolytes. There is not a lot of scientific evidence that electrolytes prevent cramps, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence.
I have a terrible history of cramping in warm weather races. This year's Boston Marathon was a bit of a fiasco for me with debilitating quad cramps from about 18 miles on.
5 weeks later, at Vermont City on Sunday, I had a great race with no cramping whatsoever on a day that was warmer than what we had at Boston.
The only difference, apart from it being a different course, was I started taking electrolyte tablets (Nuun) in water on Thursday of last week. I took 3 on Thursday, 3 on Friday, 4 on Saturday, then 1 the morning of the race.
Runners run
Interval Junkie --Nobby
There are many people with more experience than me, so take this for what it's worth:
In looking briefly at your logs, i see you longest longrun is just 16miles (actually 16.6). And you're running them pretty damn fast for a 3:30 marathon goal. You ran it at 7:07 avg pace, and other runs around 7:30 pace. Maybe this is a different plan than I'm used to reviewing -- but I'd consider a 7:07pace for 16miles a moderately fast run for a 3hr marathon goal.
You're doing plenty of mileage (around 60mpw), but the long run just seems to be missing. You should do a 20/22miler every other week or so. And around 8min pace would probably be a healthy effort.
2021 Goals: 50mpw 'cause there's nothing else to do
Latent Runner
In the past 3 races (running and cycling), I haven't hit the proverbial wall , but I've encountered the terrible cramps each race. During my most recent race, which was a marathon, I started experiencing the pre-cramp warning signs around mile 11. Coming off of a plantar fasciitis injury, I knew it was going to a struggle as I didn't have a strong finish to my training session but I didn't expect to blow up quite as hard as I did. In any matter, how can I make my legs bulletproof? More mileage? More hills? Trail running? Strength training? Any advice or stories would be welcome!
I've suffered various injuries and other race impacting issues throughout my 40+ years of running, and what has finally done the trick for me is lots of LSD on trails. So successful has my trail running been, I've decided to experiment with eliminating all speed work from my normal weekly routine (with the following exceptions) and concentrate on LSD.
In prior years I've never managed to go even 700 miles without getting hurt or having other issues which slowed me down when racing. In the last 12 months I've logged over 2,500 miles and am surprised how strong I am and how fast I can race given my almost complete lack of speed work.
Fat old man PRs:
stadjak, I was shooting for a 3:05. I used the Hanson's marathon method as my guide, 16 miles is the longest run in the plan. If you look at my most recent marathon splits, I came in through 13.1 @ 1:31:40 ish. Around mile 11, I knew something was wrong. Getting the pre-cramp signs at 11 in my hamstrings was alarming to me. I knew the calf cramps were eventually coming but the hamstrings were something completely new. The wheels came off around mile 18, where I just couldn't put up with the pain anymore.
I think you're running your easy/long runs way too fast. Try 8 mins/mile as suggested above, with recovery runs at 8:45 to 9 minute pace.
How much water are you drinking during a marathon?
Certified Running CoachCrocked since 2013
I think you're running your easy/long runs way too fast. Try 8 mins/mile as suggested above, with recovery runs at 8:45 to 9 minute pace. How much water are you drinking during a marathon?
I grabbed 1 cup at every station, 2 whenever possible. I used cranksport e-Gel's for the race, took one at the start and then every 30-35 minutes.
Okay, that makes a lot more sense. I'm not familiar with the theory behind Hanson's, but the paces sound more in line with a 3hr attempt. 7:07 is still faster than I'd plan to run my 20miler, but it's not that far off, i guess.
Getting (pre) cramps as early as mile ELEVEN of a marathon seems very odd, considering your 16.6miler at 7:07 pace is only 3seconds off MP. The description of your 16.6miler on 4/6 sounded pretty optimistic. You don't mention any issues even though dehydrated. Unfortunately, you did not record the temperature -- so maybe that was the difference in the race.
The rest of your workouts all look pretty good -- though I don't understand the impact of all the biking on your system.
As Mikey says, nobody really knows why cramps happen, but the best explanation seems to be just fitness level of that muscle. So, I'd say all your suggestions are good, but I'd probably pursue Hills if I had to choose.
Just noticed on 4/10 you complain of cramps at mile 11 again -- that's in a tempo run with 6:50s-- and also in your 13.1 race. Seems mile 11 is the trouble-spot; at least you're consistent.
This is probably just me reaching for what I know, but if I had this problem I'd be doing three things: I'd use a more traditional training plan with 20milers to put more stress at slower speeds on the cramping muscles, I'd quit using gels so much in training (you really don't need to pop a gel for 13miles -- even for 20 for that matter), and I'd be hitting the hills. I'd also probably dial back my MP a bit: trying for a 3:15. That's still 15minutes under your PR.
Any chance your goal is too high? How do you justify a 3:05 goal with 1:30 half time?
Feeling the growl again
Random thoughts with little homework on your log/PRs:
- If your HM PR is 1:30 and you are going for 3:05, either your HM PR is very soft and you know it or you are way over-reaching on your 3:05 attempt.
- While I believe in the Hansons approach for getting the rank-and-file running low mileage to quit over-emphasizing the long run, one size does not fit all. If capping the distance at 16.6 miles is not working for you maybe you need to work up to 20 miles and see if things improve.
- Gels during marathon training? Why? For someone approaching 3 hours this is totally unnecessary. I'm also concerned about the 30-35min frequency during the race. Seems a bit much.
- Are you sure it is really cramping....involuntary contractions...and not just you pushing the muscles too hard and wasting them early?
- If you can run 16.6 miles at near MP, you are either running too hard or it's not really your MP. So you're running them too hard. True MP should not be something that someone wants to use in training for such a long distance under full training load.
"If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does. There's your pep talk for today. Go Run." -- Slo_Hand
I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills
Cramping that early is odd. Going out too fast? Diet? Tired legs?
I have used Hanson's so I know you can get by with 16 mile LR.
Not sure what is going on but my plan for bullet proof legs is Champion Hills.
Champion hills were name after Jack Dempsey the famous boxer who trained there.
There are no hills quite like them. They make all sides of your legs hurt.
Still kicking
Another consideration: Any chance you are racing in a lower drop shoe than you train in? I'm experiencing some hamstring cramping for this very reason, going from 4-6mm drop training shoes, to lighter 0 drop shoes for racing.
I'm also on Athlinks and Strava
How many Marathons have you run? In peeking at your log I only see 2 marathons since you started recording workouts etc. If you haven't run more than that, you probably just need a few more training cycles under you before you start to develop the "bulletproof" legs that you are looking for when it comes to running 26.2. Your past 5K times would indicate you have the speed for 3:05, you just need the endurance. The is the most common case for most newer marathoners. Endurance takes much longer than speed in terms of development.
As for building endurance, you need to consistently run more miles, with MANY of them being at a slow/easy pace. As others have mentioned it appears you're running your long runs WAY to fast. For example, like you, I targeted 3:05 last fall. I ran 3:04:14, however, for my 4 twenty milers, I pretty much did all of them in the 8:00-9:00 min/mile range ( I did run the last 5 miles of 1 or 2 of them near MP) --- much much slower than your 7:07 pace. That being said, I usually ran 9-11 miles the day before my long runs in the 6:40-7:05 range to get me used to running MP. The LSD run the next day was just to get my legs used to running long when they were somewhat fatigued from the previous days MP run. (You can peek at my log last July-August 2013 to compare our paces if you want, since I used that training cycle to train for 3:05, which is what you happened to be training for.) This was marathon #13 for me, just as an FWI - so you can fully compare our training programs as this may give you some ideas.
Personally, it took me about 5 marathons before I was feeling like my legs could comfortably run sub 3:20-3:30. Even then, on a hot day, or on a very technical course, you have to totally adjust your goals.
I think I'm capable of a 1:28:XX HM, the course I did the 1:30 on had a big climb towards the end of the race. This past marathon had a decline of 700ft throughout the course of the race. I've realized I'm just not great at racing courses with large climbs / descents. But yes, the 3:05 was a bit of a reach considering my previous marathon PR, but I figured I made the same type of jump with my HM PR that it was feasible if I put in the training. I've only been running for 2 years, so with this 5 month cycle, I hit weekly/monthly/yearly PRs for mileage. This past race was definitely a learning experience. Running the perfect marathon needs time and training, luckily I have plenty of that ahead of me. I'll put all the comments you've stated to good use.
I also think if I ran this marathon pre-PF injury, it would have been a lot different. That's when my legs were feeling fresher and my confidence was running higher. Post PF injury, my training runs haven't been quite the same.
I second diet. There is a link between iron, calcium deficency and muscle cramps. Dehydration is also a link. I used to cramp my legs often even I didn't run. I think my diet change has solved the problem.
5k - 20:56 (09/12), 7k - 28:40 (11/12), 10k trial - 43:08 (03/13), 42:05 (05/13), FM - 3:09:28 (05/13), HM - 1:28:20 (05/14), Failed 10K trial - 6:10/mi for 4mi (08/14), FM - 3:03 (09/14)