Thanks much guys!

I had been wondering about the gel flasks and how hard it would be to re-fill

etc.  I know that bhearn has mentioned using one.

Hi all, I saved all my responses up for once.

 It would be beneficial to have electrolyte pills ready in case you need them. Some people take them on a regular basis, some only when it is hot, and some as needed. 

and some not at all. Since reading Waterlogged I've fueled following Noakes' advice: 10g of carbs (half a gel) and 100ml water (1/6th of 20 oz. bottle) every 10 minutes. Period. No salt. In fact I've intentionally gone with vanilla Hammer gel, because it has the lowest sodium I could find. Also, I drink 400ml and take 40g carbs just before the race -- the theory is that the rate the stomach drains is proportional to how full it is. In theory this gives you a supply of ~250 cal / hour, for the duration of the race.

I haven't yet run a 100 following this plan, but that's what I will try for Rocky Raccoon. (But I'm prepared to take salt if I think I need it -- not really sure on what basis I would make that decision, though.) It's worked well at 50k and 50M. I carry a gel flask, which holds 6 gels. For the marathon, I find that I can't quite take the gels at that rate -- I guess too much blood has been diverted from digestion (as spaniel suggested). When I ran 2:58 a couple of weeks ago I planned on finishing my flask by 2 hours, and using on-course Gatorade for the remainder, but I only managed to get through 4 1/2 gels' worth by the end of the race. I had a similar experience at my previous marathon, a slower training run (3:20ish), still faster than ultra pace.

 As a post-script, I would guess in the longer races people don't so much give a crap about glycogen levels...if you're really depending on that and run it low anywhere but the end you are hosed.

Largely they don't, but IMO they should. I hear people say they don't bother to carb load before ultras, because it's all about fat burning. Maybe most of the calories burned are fat, but it's still all about deferring glycogen depletion as long as possible. In theory you would ideally run at a rate that balanced your consumption and expenditure so that you race out of glycogen at the end of the race. In practice there are way too many variables to reliably make that work, and you're always experimenting on yourself.

I have to agree with Trent and SRL about not dying out there when you get behind on fuel or have a horrible stretch. Ultras ebb and flow. You will hit bipolar levels that you will never see in real life. You can and will sink to astonomical levels in both body and mind. Dig your way out, do what you need to move forward, and you may be surprised how well you can move a bit down the road.

+1

Oh, a handy fueling idea: Carry a snack size ziplock with you. At aid stations throw a little mix of stuff in there. Then go. Even if you walk and eat, you are moving better than the person hanging out at the aid station. Even better, run and use uphill hikes to graze if you need to ingest "real" food.

Yes, I was taught this at my first 100. If you're going to be getting food from aid stations, this is essential.

HEED is ass, but perpetuem is not so bad.

 

They also make perpetuem in little solids.  They hurt my crowns just thinking about them though.

HEED doesn't bother me. Maybe I have no taste buds. If it has carbs in it it's good for me. Though as I said, now I just do gels and water anyway.

 Some people will carry a little flask full of gel.... by 'flask', I mean a little bottle the size of your palm, not a booze flask.  I don't do this because refilling this (with more gel from my drop bag at an aid station) is a pain in the ass, especially when tired.  Much easier to grab the individually-sized packages of gel and go.

I plan out where my flask will run out, and stage more gel flasks in my drop bags. A gel flask lasts two hours; a 20-oz water bottle lasts one. This is annoying, because aid stations are often more than an hour apart. I have yet to try a vest -- I just carry two bottles when necessary or stretch one out. For White River 50 (very hilly) I went through 5 gel flasks; that worked well. I did have to be carrying two at a time sometimes, because I'd run out of one between aid stations.

Thanks much guys!

I had been wondering about the gel flasks and how hard it would be to re-fill

etc.  I know that bhearn has mentioned using one.

Yep! I don't think it makes sense to refill a gel flask. You'd have to leave a large bottle of gel in your drop bag anyway, so why not just leave prepared flasks? They are cheap.

Something else I was going to say... can't remember now. Off to see The Hobbit with nieces and nephew. I'm expecting to be offended. Belated Merry Christmas, all.

Wow.  This is an excellent thread

+1  I've been trying to get through all the information above but I do have one question regarding salt/S-caps.  I don't know what form the s-caps come in and I actually haven't done much research on them but I was wondering if they would be beneficial for those that are heavy sweaters.  I know too much water loss can throw off the electrolyte balance and don't know if this would help.  If so, when is an appropriate time or how often do people take them?

I stopped taking them and have raced better (up to and including a gigantic 50 mile PR in 80 degree heat).

Experimentation in training is your friend, as is knowing that the different kinds differ from each other dramatically.  s-caps are a big honkin dose of sodium.  endurolytes are a much lower dose of sodium, but with other stuff.  But anyway, I do way better without.

I have found that my hands swell when I am sweating and don't take the salt tabs.

Doesn't that just mean you're overhydrated?

Doesn't that just mean you're overhydrated?

Yes, kinda, but...

It actually means that my body has water in excess of sodium, putting me at risk of hyponatremia. Given a high sweat rate and intake of fluids to thirst + Gu, as mentioned, I suspect that it is more likely a hypovolemic hyponatremia wherein the Gu I am taking and the sodium in the fluids are inadequate to replete my sodium relative to my water intake. Hypo/Hypo is a condition in which your body is deficient in both sodium and water, but the sodium deficiency is more severe than the water deficiency.  This is common in situations where sweat or urine is replaced with water (or beer, for real).  The overhydration is that I am overhydrated relative to sodium, but my total body water is still low. As a result, you get some of the symptoms of overyhydration, including swelling and urine output.  In this situation, I could simply take more Gu as you do, but I find that my stomach does not tolerate the Gu rate yours does. The easy, uncomplicated answer is salt tabs.

The other point I did not make in my prior post is that this often is accompanied by good urine output, even though it may be dark. That too is consistent with hypovolemic hyponatremia.

Indeed. Actually, I was watching the Little Ceasars Bowl while eating Impellizzeri's Pizza in Louisville just now.

#truestory

Bit of a tangent here, but it might lead to info that isn't. As we know there are a ton of books/training plans etc. for marathons. Hansons, Pfitz, etc. etc. Since I too am diving more into the ultra pool next year I've done a bit of poking around for similar books relating specifically to ultras, without much luck. So, you more experienced types, know any good ones to recommend? Any that you've gotten useful stuff out of? Not necessarily so much for a training plan, though that would be good too.