3650 Miles in the Hurtlocker

March Racing Thread (Read 1400 times)

WhoDatRunner


Will Crew for Beer

    It's one thing to expect someone to yield on a single track trail where there may not otherwise be room to pass, but from all accounts there was nothing stopping this hose head from passing spaniel on the right. Even if spaniel were somehow impeding his ability to pass, pushing and tackling someone is way out of hand.

     

    Looks like this guy won the DINO Trail Series last year, so maybe he mainly runs trails and really did expect spaniel to move over. Still....what a retard. Here's his FB page https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1235952153&sk=wall

     

    Here's the Sam Costa FB page in case anyone is curious. https://www.facebook.com/sam.costa.half

    Rule number one of a gunfight, bring a gun. Rule number two of a gunfight, bring friends with guns.


    Feeling the growl again

       

       

      In triathlons there are wave starts. This ususlly means that the faster people in later waves are catching slower people from the earlier waves. It's expected that the slower people yield to the faster whether that be by bike or run.

       

      In trail races where there are multiple loops I've seen it covered in the rules that slower runners should yield.

       

      In mountain biking it's very common to expect a slower rider to make room for you to pass at the earliest possible spot.

       

      In cross country the rules are different. It's not uncommon for people to block for other teammates.

       

      I searched and searched looking for some sort of rules that would govern a road race but I found nothing. I personally would not expect to yield my line to someone trying to pass me in a road race.

       

      I know in NCAA and USATF, leader has the right of way.  If you want to go around, you find a clear path or you are impeding from behind (DQ).

       

      In some cases...I am not sure all...a rule is put in place on the track where once the leader begins lapping people, they must move out to Lane 2 and let the leaders have Lane 1.  Seems common sense, and even when it is not a rule this is the common practice.

       

      Common sense also says that even if you feel your right of way has been taken you can't retaliate with force.  But common sense is not so common.

       

      MTA:  On a whim I went searching for rules.  Apparently these things are not written down.  I found two sources...neither an official sanctioning body...that discussed impediment in general and called it a reason for DQ.  However, the definition of impediment did not include a lead runner holding their line, but did include any contact or action which forced another runner to lose momentum or break stride.  Passing etiquette was not discussed other than in the case of much faster runners passing much slower runners...not on point for people traveling at the same pace.

      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

       

      I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills

       


      Hawt and sexy

        Road racing is covered by USATF, meaning the same rule set as track. Andypants had the right of way here. Andy could have been weaving like mad, similar to what Hall did in the Oly Trials, and he was still in the right of way. It's the passer's job to get by the leader cleanly. Tackling him is not really considered a clean pass. But there's not usually any judges on the roads like you would see on the track.

         

        I just can't believe the RD took the word of his cronies, several people back from the action, over the word of the witnesses that were right there. Mr. Monroe must have been a friend of the RD or something. I could see the RD just DQing both as troublemakers, but Andypants didn't even bring this to the RD's attention. If the original story is right, other racers tried to police this guy. I don't know, something smells funny here.

        I'm touching your pants.


        Feeling the growl again

           I could see the RD just DQing both as troublemakers, but Andypants didn't even bring this to the RD's attention. If the original story is right, other racers tried to police this guy. I don't know, something smells funny here.

           

          To be completely transparent, when I finished the offender came up and offered an "I'm sorry but it was really your fault, I would not have done anything differently" type of "apology".  I said I was not interested and was going to the RD.  He headed directly to his car then.

           

          The first witness approached me and recounted what he saw in front of several spectators and race volunteers.  One of the volunteers, pretty outraged about it, ran after the offender and caught him as he was trying to get in his car and leave.  So he immediately scoots to the RD and tells his side first.  The witness and I went over next and it went from there.  The offender actually did not deny starting the aggression, only made excuses why he felt justified (I would not move over). The other witnesses came forward sometime later.

           

          I got the feeling at the time that the RD did not give a crap, could not believe a runner would go after another, and wanted it to just go away.  The only question he asked was if changing the course would have prevented it.  I was clear that the race and organization had nothing to do with it. 

           

          His first instinct was to DQ us both (from his crony's account only), but he did not "out of compassion".

           

          ra, thanks for the perspective on the trail racing.  It does not make him less of an asshat, but the perspective helps give some insight into the thought process.  

           

          BTW, who leaves their FB page completely open???

           

          The Carmel Marathon, my next race, is from the same group.  I wonder if I will get to race or if they will ban me for being a troublemaker.  Though I was soft and did not copy the President on my reply to the RD.  C-R has seen the reply....to quote my wife, "I have never seen two people be so pleasant with each other in 'f*** you, no f*** YOU' emails.".  Wink

           

          Ah well, I could be nice and drunk by the time DB joins me if I don't have to run.  All of their races are starting to look like fruit of the poisoned vine to me.

          "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

           

          I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills

           

          C-R


            Carmel Marathon is a completely different group and I already contacted the RD so no worries.

             

            This shit stinks to high heaven. It takes a twisted perspective to call equal foul when one party is seriously agrieved.

             

            Personally, I think he just didn't want to deal with it and this is his sad excuse to punt.


            "He conquers who endures" - Persius
            "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

            http://ncstake.blogspot.com/


            Hawt and sexy

              Is Monroe going to be at Carmel? I looked but I didn't see a registered runners list.

              I'm touching your pants.


              Ostrich runner

                I'm a little surprised we don't have any mutual friends. I'll have to ask about him. Interesting that he was really excited in a previous post about a flagrant foul. 

                http://www.runningahead.com/groups/Indy/forum


                Ostrich runner

                  I'm not sure of the rules, but I know from cross in college that the leader would always take the path of least resistance, sometimes even boxing in a faster runner with a team mate. 

                   

                  I have seen many guys get angry in single track trail races for not allowing a pass. I always step aside within a reasonable amount of time, but only where there is space to do it. Then again, I'm never at the front. Often times when calling for a pass, I'll say something like "I want to pass on that bend." I have nudged a couple times when someone either ignored multiple calls or was wearing headphones too loud to know I was there. 

                  http://www.runningahead.com/groups/Indy/forum


                  Feeling the growl again

                    Another email from the RD, a quite lighter on the blame rhetoric after thing things I pointed out I guess (it did cool me off a bit).  But he attached the couple photos he had, which is quite interesting.

                     

                     

                    Note that I am in third, approaching the corner, with a shirtless Monroe riding as close as he can behind and to the left.  Of all the runners in the photo, he is already following much closer than anyone else in a wide-open lead pack....and I cannot see him.   Witness #1 is in 4th, and the RD's friends, Witnesses #2 and #3, in 7th and 8th. 

                     

                    Seconds later...

                    The angle compresses people together, but the relation is the same as the prior photo.   The lead runner is cutting the tangent to the curb, which will take a sweeping, constant curve to the left like a track.  We're following.  The incident occurred ~75-100yds after this photo, IIRC correctly.

                     

                    So when I approached the curb and rode it tight just like every other runner, it appears that rather than yielding to the runner in front (me, who could not see he was there), he still was trying to squeeze in on my left shoulder.  Note that Witness #1 is even further left in the photo, but by the time the incident started was behind me and slightly to my right.  In other words, while Witness #1 did what and reasonable runner would do and fell off slghtly and moved off where there was room, Monroe did not.  He expected me to yield to him...even though I could not even see him.

                     

                    After seeing the photos, the trail racing defense seems less significant.  It seems the most likely scenario here was that he did not do what any reasonable runner would do, what I'm sure we have all done thousands of time, and adjust our position and line in the race to accomodate the movements of those in front of us in the race.  And he let the anger at this drive him to physical intervention.  Perhaps his "on your left" was a call for space, not to pass, but this is the issue...I could not see him, he was more behind than left of me, and any normal runner would not be continuing to squeeze themselves in there, so the thought never occurred to me.  It's usually language used to pass.

                     

                    So here's the lesson folks.  This is why you yield to runners in front of you.  They can't see you.  You have the ability to react to the shifting of positions, they do not.  Had I known he was this far left and close in as we approached the curb...if he'd been just another foot forward where I could see him....I would have taken a wider line and not deliberately squeezed him out and forced him to slow down.  But I simply could not see him.  Also, don't needlessly ride someone's ass and risk physical contact when there is plenty of room to race and it's so early in the race.

                     

                    It's also pretty apparent that Witnesses #2 and #3 had a pretty obstructed view of the initial events, with two runners in between them and the action.  Once I was shoved everything shifted out to the right, which would have opened up their view.  They never saw what started it.

                    "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                     

                    I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills

                     


                    Prince of Fatness

                      Another email from the RD, a quite lighter on the blame rhetoric after thing things I pointed out I guess (it did cool me off a bit).  But he attached the couple photos he had, which is quite interesting.

                       

                      It looks pretty damn clear from those pictures that you were ahead of the guy and could not see him, so I find it hard to believe that the RD could think that you initiated the contact.  Did the RD acknowledge that?

                      Not at it at all. 

                      C-R


                        Let me first say that I don't really race or have much racing experience. HS XC in Alabama because the coach needed fill ins from the soccer team doesn't count.

                         

                        That being said, there is no way the lead runner has responsibility to do anything regarding the trailing runner from a simple common sense perspective. This is evident in car racing, cycling, tri's and so on. Yelling "on your left" is shit you do on the Monon trail so some walker or dog owner doesn't freak out when you pass them.

                         

                        The images validate this point and the RD is even a bigger moron for not taking proper action. I think if he had any integrity after reading your responses and seeing the images, he would at minimum admit he was incorrect in his original assessment and offer an apology to you. It seems apparent he refuses to DQ this guy, but common courtesy would warrant some form of contrition. 

                         

                        Troubling.


                        "He conquers who endures" - Persius
                        "Every workout should have a purpose. Every purpose should link back to achieving a training objective." - Spaniel

                        http://ncstake.blogspot.com/


                        Hawt and sexy

                          Wow. That is way too close for comfort. Good thing you can't see him. He's close enough to freak you out a little.

                           

                          It seems he is pack running in a track meet, but the people blocking him in are just not there. Weird.

                           

                          I found USATF ref recommendations. They say not to DQ unless there is a flagrant foul or someone is seriously hurt. They did not define a flagrant foul. It was a .pdf online that included all the paperwork for track meets, road, and cross country races.

                           

                          Common sense would dictate that a bear hug throw to the ground is a flagrant foul regardless of any head games being played by racers.

                           

                          So what was the pretense of the photos? Is he still listening to his cronies or did these open his eyes a bit?

                          I'm touching your pants.


                          Feeling the growl again

                            It looks pretty damn clear from those pictures that you were ahead of the guy and could not see him, so I find it hard to believe that the RD could think that you initiated the contact.  Did the RD acknowledge that?

                             

                            No.  To be fair, the pics take place before contact was made so it would still not show if I somehow did anything.  But I think it makes it pretty damn clear that I had the right-of-way, following a legitimate line, and there was no crowding with plenty of room both behind and to the right.

                             

                            IMHO there are two issues at play here:  1) Whether Monroe was justified in being angry with how I moved and responded to his verbal request on the course; 2) whether this justified the resulting contact and takedown.

                             

                            The main issue I have had with the RD is that the outcome of (1) does not have any impact on justifying (2).  Even if I somehow cut left and bumped him, he was behind enough I could not see him, he had put himself in a difficult spot, and he had both the obligation and opportunity to extract himself from it by giving way or shifting to my right.  Even if a misunderstanding led to mutual pushing (which it didn't), it doesn't justify a flagrant takedown when another runner has turned and is trying to run away from the encounter.

                            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                             

                            I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills

                             


                            Feeling the growl again

                              So what was the pretense of the photos? Is he still listening to his cronies or did these open his eyes a bit?

                               

                              This email seemed to totally backpedal on placing any blame at all.  I had included the statement "If your response was that you got conflicting accounts, and this prevented you from making any definitive ruling, I could have accepted that."  He quoted that, and responded that this was what he had said, nothing more and nothing less.  Except, that it is not. 

                               

                              I figured this is sucking enough Hurtlocker bandwidth that I didn't need to paste the whole emails... Wink

                               

                              MTA, he seemed somewhat disarmed that I ran a 1:15 yet indicated that my competitive days were far behind me and I was just there to enjoy the fun and camraderie. Big grin  Sometimes self-depracation is effective I guess.

                              "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                               

                              I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills

                               

                              DoppleBock


                                How are you doing physically?  Pretty healed up?

                                 

                                Usually my hamstring twangs while running - This morning is the 1st time it ever was trangy 1st thing out of bed.  I look at is a payback for the trail run last night - I was constantly slowing myself down - But was still cruising.  I wish I had felt that way Saturday for the upcoming 50k - But I believe it possible I blew my wad with my 2nd 50k training run this week.  But I just remind myself of the bigger picture - This is training - Saturdays 50k is just another longer run.

                                Long dead ... But my stench lingers !