Hey DB...
You've posted a pretty detailed summary on your nutrition/hydration strategy for training and races. I tried searching for it, but apparently can't find the right search terms. Any chance you could outline your strategy for me?
I'm about 3 weeks out from Tahoe, and I'm realizing that I've fallen short on every long run. I've typically gone with 1 Gu and 1 Clif bar per hour (the Gu at 30 minutes, and the Clif bar on the hour). That puts me at about 340 calories per hour. I think that's fine and all, but I have no backup plan for about 5 to 6 hours in when all of the sudden I can't stomach the Clif bars any more.
Here's been my overall strategy...
I tend to fall back on Gatorade past the 3 hour mark or so to get some extra calories in.
But, none of this has worked very well.
Obviously it's a little late for a change, but any recommendations? My wife is on a Hammer kick and buying stuff from them, but I haven't liked Heed... maybe I should give it a shot.
I'm open to almost anything at this point...
Feeling the growl again
"If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does. There's your pep talk for today. Go Run." -- Slo_Hand
I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills
I spent the weekend on the boat - Not in RA - I will look at and post something tonight -
Long dead ... But my stench lingers !
dspeer, I checked...it's in the Ultra Talk thread...although I'm sure that just scratches the surface of what DB or WG could share.
Apparently you need two initials to be an ultra expert around here. That just confirms that I am a total amateur.
Find some fuel you like quickly - I have an iron stomache and keep jamming down according to plan long after it taste good or I want too. I use Endorox R4 as my main fuel. It is a recovery fuel and contains a lot of magnesium which can give you the trots ... so beware.
Succeed has 2 products http://www.succeedscaps.com/main_ultra.html - Roy would use a combination of "Ultra" and "Clip2" - I find them tolerable - But a little chalky - The benefit over Endurox is Endurox gets foamy.
You seem aware of Hammer options - I also find them chalky
I think I like the sweatness of Endurox - It is like Tang.
I have a 7 mile loop I use for 24 hour training - It is 55-60 minutes of time. I will park my car at one spot, carry a handheld - Eat 1 or 2 gels along the loop and then 300 calories of Endurox at my car. About 1/2 way there is water and a bathroom. I have done up to 7 loops of this. If it is cool - I will take a s-cap at the car. If it is hot I take s-caps every 30 minutes.
Lately I have been trail running long runs - So I do not have access to a vehicle like clockwork. On the trail I get a little less regular calories - I carry a baggy of s-caps. For up to 5 hour trail run - I wear a camelback and I take a gel & S-cap every 1/2 hour. Today I am trying a longer trail run and plan on bringing a handheld along with camelback. They have drinkable water (But really rusty tasting) at a few locations along the trail - When I hit a water stop I will be carrying baggies of endurox to get a bigger shot of calories.
This is all I train with.
Racing is a little different - But not a lot. I like to add 2 more food options - Bananas and ham and cheese sandwhices. I do not train with these - But race day some days I wolf down a lot of bananas and ham and cheese and sometimes not at all.
Bananas - Potasium and something a little different
Ham & Cheese - A little fat and protein and give stomach a break from icky sticky sweet stuff.
I do not take these in place of gels and endurox, but on top of gels and endurox.
If I am not interested in bananas race day - I will add 2-3 potasium pills.
So that covers calories and electrolytes - How about H20?
Lets face it - Racing - I get 2 - 20 ounce handhelds with my 2 gels and 2 s-caps each hour of h20 and 10-12 ounces of liquid with my endurox - that is 50 ounces an hour. I pee alot in the 24 hour race. Trail races - I tend ot get a lot less h20 - Although I will wear a camle back to make sure I get a lot more than most people. This is 3-5 pounds of extra weight - But when you are 200+ pounds - it does not seem like much.
Food - Shooting for a minimum of 300 calories per hour - I shoot for 500. But your real goal is to eat as much as you can without it accumulating in your stomach. Eat early and often - because once you go a few hours without eating - I think your body starts shutting down the digestive system and its hard to get it firing 100% again.
Pacing is a whole other story
Hey DB... You've posted a pretty detailed summary on your nutrition/hydration strategy for training and races. I tried searching for it, but apparently can't find the right search terms. Any chance you could outline your strategy for me? I'm about 3 weeks out from Tahoe, and I'm realizing that I've fallen short on every long run. I've typically gone with 1 Gu and 1 Clif bar per hour (the Gu at 30 minutes, and the Clif bar on the hour). That puts me at about 340 calories per hour. I think that's fine and all, but I have no backup plan for about 5 to 6 hours in when all of the sudden I can't stomach the Clif bars any more. Here's been my overall strategy... 2 or 3 (or more) ounces of water every 5 minutes - This would = 2.5*12 = 30 ounces per hour - I would rater hit 35-40 per hour and risk having to pee a lot Salt tab every half hour - If cool 45 minutes is ok - But I only understand s-caps (High salt content) if they are e-caps or other - http://www.succeedscaps.com/Facts_scaps.html - here is the link to convert the nutritional values Gel on the half hour Clif bar on the hour Any other food as I feel like it. - Nutrition sounds ok - But I would love to get some "Branched Chain Amino Acids and protein to preserve the athlete’s muscle" into you. Also I stay away from simple sugars (M&Ms etc) I tend to fall back on Gatorade past the 3 hour mark or so to get some extra calories in. - I find gatorade a simple sugar and do not mind it for marathons - But for ultras I feel like it take me to peaks and valleys. I would not drink it in a 24 hour race - Heed I hate for marathons - But slam it for ultras - I do not think this is as important of a point as the amino acids and a little protein. I also use this product http://www.succeedscaps.com/main_prerace.html - One time out of 7 it has upset my stomache at the start of the race - But I slammed down all the pills 5 minutes to gun - If I had taken them an hour before I think I would have been ok. In 1 24 hour race I took another packet 1/2 way through. Another thing I do is eat a fair amount the morning of the ultra - Unlike a marathon - I do not care if I start with a half full stomach But, none of this has worked very well. - It may be your nutrition strategy - Although it does not sounds unreasonable to me. It could be your pacing / racing strategy that has failed you. When you push your body too hard it will not want to take calories anymore ... Obviously it's a little late for a change, but any recommendations? My wife is on a Hammer kick and buying stuff from them, but I haven't liked Heed... maybe I should give it a shot. I'm open to almost anything at this point...
I tend to fall back on Gatorade past the 3 hour mark or so to get some extra calories in. - I find gatorade a simple sugar and do not mind it for marathons - But for ultras I feel like it take me to peaks and valleys. I would not drink it in a 24 hour race - Heed I hate for marathons - But slam it for ultras - I do not think this is as important of a point as the amino acids and a little protein.
I also use this product http://www.succeedscaps.com/main_prerace.html - One time out of 7 it has upset my stomache at the start of the race - But I slammed down all the pills 5 minutes to gun - If I had taken them an hour before I think I would have been ok. In 1 24 hour race I took another packet 1/2 way through. Another thing I do is eat a fair amount the morning of the ultra - Unlike a marathon - I do not care if I start with a half full stomach
But, none of this has worked very well. - It may be your nutrition strategy - Although it does not sounds unreasonable to me. It could be your pacing / racing strategy that has failed you. When you push your body too hard it will not want to take calories anymore ...
If I were to only tweak 1 thing? I would do something else every other hour than a cliffbar. Something liquid with amino acids and at least a small bit of protein. Or maybe have 3 things you switch.
Hour #1 Cliff bar
Hour # 2 Amino acid drink
Hour # 3 sandwhich
Repeat - But at some point you could go to all one of them - then at least you have 3 options.
Just my rambling thoughts
For the Price of beers to be paid in the future (If and when we ever see each other) - I sould send you some Succeed Products to try. PM me your address. I am not sure if they have an experation date, but they have been sitting in my running cabinet for 3 years - So I do not mind.
Of course the "Beer" cost is for shipping and handling - Do not underestimate the "Beer" cost.
I know I have "Clip2" and then either "Amino" or "Ultra"
I'm fully confident we'll meet at least at a race one day... Heck, I've already met WG like 3 times and the Minnesota crew once or twice. But, I'm no longer traveling for work... anywho... if we do meet up, New Glarus on me.
I like the thought of switching up what I have now, but sticking to the basic structure. I could change it, but since it's been my strategy for the past 2 years or so, I'd hate to try something radically different.
What I think I will change is the Gatorade. It always sits way too heavy on my stomach after consuming 64 ounces of it or so. I had that happen at a half iron, and every ultra I've ever run where I've had Gatorade.
I've used the Hammer recovery drink fairly often, so I could give that a shot. The magnesium concerns me, though... suffice it to say I don't need much help in that department.
I'd love to rely on ramen for the salt and carbs, but I don't think it will be easily accessible.
I think what I'll try to do is rely on gels and Clif bars, and use aid station food to break up the monotony. Then, I'll drop Gatorade entirely and rely on the Hammer Sustained Energy product for my handheld and water in my Camelbak. I'll add in some Perpetuem solids every now and then. Also, keep on the Endurolytes every hour, and bumping up to every half hour in the hottest part of the day.
The gel and Clif bar gets me 350 calories per hour. Supplement with Sustained Energy and that gets me an additional 100 to 200 calories per hour, depending on how many bottles of it I can fill in between the crewed aid stations. Bad side of Tahoe: basically no crew access except for 30, 50, 80, and finish. Long time in between to be left to your own devices...
And of course, I'll drink a ton of beer at the finish. Or, as much as I feel like. I will make it to the finish...
And what do you recommend as an amino acid drink? A Succeed product? I'll PM you my address.
Thanks for the help!
This is a good read. I need to re-think my nutrition a bit too after feeling barf-tastic for 40 miles at SD.
500!?!?!?! calories per hour. Holy hell. I'm lucky to handle 250-300. Though I probably don't require as much as the fellas.
I had no stomach issues in my first 100 and relied 95% on gels/chews. At the last race I got sick of those quick and everything except broth made me feel ill. I had tried Clip2 before but also got nauseas during that trial. I'm thinking maybe I wasn't getting enough salt, that can cause nausea, right?
dspeer - can you have drop bags along the course in between crew access?
~Sara It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard is what makes it great. ~ Jimmy Dugan
This is a good read. I need to re-think my nutrition a bit too after feeling barf-tastic for 40 miles at SD. 500!?!?!?! calories per hour. Holy hell. I'm lucky to handle 250-300. Though I probably don't require as much as the fellas. I had no stomach issues in my first 100 and relied 95% on gels/chews. At the last race I got sick of those quick and everything except broth made me feel ill. I had tried Clip2 before but also got nauseas during that trial. I'm thinking maybe I wasn't getting enough salt, that can cause nausea, right? dspeer - can you have drop bags along the course in between crew access?
They say you can, so I'm going to see if I can make it work. But the aid stations in between those crew-accessible aid stations are something like a 3 or 4 mile hike. So, I'm not sure how reliable that's going to be.
I'll probably put something small together. If it's there, it's a bonus.