Beginners and Beyond

12

Pace vs Effort: Cracking the Code (Read 70 times)

LRB


    Recovery seems to be the most important pace to not push, IMO.  

     

    Yep, my recovery runs have been in the 9:00's and high 8:00's a lot lately but I am totally cool with it, knowing that it serves an important purpose.

    LRB


      I do fairly well at holding the same effort when racing...

       

      You put on a clinic during your half!

      LRB


        Not sure it's a good idea to completely ditch numbers. And if it is, not sure I'm quite ready to do it.

         

        Some may disagree but I actually think it's good to go through that phase and get it out of your system.

         

        What better teacher is there than experience.

          Earlier by LRB: Anyway, for those that run on hills or sometimes struggle to hit a given pace on flat land, is effort a variable you consider when trying to run at target pace?  Do you run at pace come hell or high water and consider the run a failure if you do not hit it, or do you even take effort into consideration at all?

           

           

          It is not considered hilly here either, which is why I was hell bent on running at pace on it in previous years. The problem with that though is you end up blowing a gasket because you are going up, even if it is not uphill.

           

          This is a graph from a 14 mile run last fall (7 out, 7 back in) from the same course (Garmin does not recognize my ANT stick anymore , so I do not have today's run available). And no it is nothing drastic, but you are climbing.

           

           

           

          Ok, got it. Since I've almost always run by effort (judged by breathing more so than HR), my answer is "yes" - effort is most of what matters.

           

          For me, a more relevant question is if I don't hit the target HR / effort, would I consider the run a failure. No, all runs are good, but some are better than others. Wink Easy and recovery runs usually can be anywhere below 80% HRmax, preferably closer to 75% and below. Tempo / subLT I like to hit 84% -88%, If I don't hit that, I may consider was I tired, too long a duration this time, weather, slippery, whatever. But it does provide some benefit. If I'm doing it on a "flat" stretch, it gives me a chance to stretch out legs more than I can on trails and to try to not let my mind wander on flat bike path (vs twisty, hilly single track).

           

          Because my flat area goes slightly downhill first, I'm always afraid of hammering too hard to get HR where I'd like, but when I turn around and head home, I can usually do it in the same time - hence same pace, but higher HR, which is just about right on target most of the time. (we've had a lot of ice this year, so many things are off kilter right now)

           

          A couple things I used to do when learning to run were to flat-line (>0) the HR curve when going over gentle hills. Can't do it on trail-grade hills - kill myself on the downs trying to get same HR as up. Wink The other was HR-fartleks - run harder to a set HR, then back off recover. I hated the back-off part, so I learned to run to just below the target until I was ready to back off. Not sure that was the goal, but it was fun to do and I got a really good handle on running by effort. Because of the delay with the HRM, I quickly learned what my breathing was like and backed off in response to breathing, not HRM

           

          What I learned is that at the easier end of things, it's not too big a deal hitting any effort or pace precisely, But when getting close to LT, it matters.

           

          I've rarely had a race pace goal, because of hills, but the one marathon (hybrid, loop, 3500ft up) I've done a couple times does have mile splits for many goal finish times. I've used those as guidelines for what I need to hit. My paces resulting from running by effort aren't far enough off in training for me to try to learn by pace since we don't have the same terrain. It's just not that relevant where I run. What is relevant for me in that race is the long downhill, partly on rough asphalt. I can train on smooth asphalt, and it doesn't help.

          "So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog
          wcrunner2


          Are we there, yet?


            Anyway, for those that run on hills or sometimes struggle to hit a given pace on flat land, is effort a variable you consider when trying to run at target pace?  Do you run at pace come hell or high water and consider the run a failure if you do not hit it, or do you even take effort into consideration at all?

             

            Running at a target pace is dependent on the workout and what I'm trying to accomplish. All my interval workouts and many of my tempo runs are at pace and of course any pace runs. Easy runs, long runs, fartlek, and some tempo runs are on perceived effort. When running at target pace on hills, I maintain the effort both up and down the hills so the average target pace for the run will be close enough for my purposes.

             2024 Races:

                  03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                  05/11 - D3 50K
                  05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour

                  06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.

             

             

                 

            Docket_Rocket


              I usually cannot gauge effort because every pace makes me feel like a fish out of water. Now that the asthma is a bit better, I can do some effort gauging during some runs. Maybe I can finally do better with that. Still, every pace feels like my lungs are going to give me an asthma attack.

               

              I do agree that being slave to a pace is a recipe for overtraining and sometimes not being able to achieve your goals due to exhaustion. People want to hit that pace even if it's hot and humid when the sensible thing would be to ease up and go by effort.  And especially in hills, effort is key.

              Damaris

               

              As part of the 2024 London Marathon, I am fundraising for VICTA, a charity that helps blind and visually impaired children. My mentor while in law school, Jim K (a blind attorney), has been a huge inspiration and an example of courage and perseverance. Please consider donating.

              Fundraising Page

              LRB


                People want to hit that pace even if it's hot and humid when the sensible thing would be to ease up and go by effort.

                 

                Is that what happen to Ryan Hall at LA? I think he was on some kind of course or American record (I cannot remember which) through 10k.

                 

                That is a great point about heart rate AKT. I had not considered that but for people who train with them that would be key.  I ran with a heart-rate monitor for a bit a couple of years ago and it was actually how I found out my easy pace had taken a jump.

                 

                Tempo and marathon are two efforts I pretty much know by heart George, the others I usually have to find over the course of the workout. Sometimes that comes quickly and other times it takes awhile.

                 

                When at my peak during the season I have 5k effort nailed as well, but that usually only comes after doing a crap load of intervals.

                workinprogress11


                  I usually cannot gauge effort because every pace makes me feel like a fish out of water. Now that the asthma is a bit better, I can do some effort gauging during some runs. Maybe I can finally do better with that. Still, every pace feels like my lungs are going to give me an asthma attack.

                   

                  I do agree that being slave to a pace is a recipe for overtraining and sometimes not being able to achieve your goals due to exhaustion. People want to hit that pace even if it's hot and humid when the sensible thing would be to ease up and go by effort.  And especially in hills, effort is key.

                  Isn't your heart rate training another way of gauging by effort, though?  That's how I thought of it, anyway. If your heart rate goes over x, for any given workout that's too much effort and you pull back.  I'm trying to do this myself without the benefit of a heart rate monitor because mine is packed away in moving boxes and I can't find it, but my last few runs have been a lot more pleasant if nothing else.  Once I get the easy pace effort (heart rate) figured out I will move on to experimenting with what faster workouts feel like.  I like the idea of being less of a slave to the garmin numbers too and hope this approach actually gives me tangible results instead of it being me just being lazy or scared of hard work.

                  Docket_Rocket


                    Yes. The HR does not lie in my case. But my effort never matches the HR (mostly because I cannot breathe well most of the time). So it is a numeric way of measuring my real effort, yes.

                    Damaris

                     

                    As part of the 2024 London Marathon, I am fundraising for VICTA, a charity that helps blind and visually impaired children. My mentor while in law school, Jim K (a blind attorney), has been a huge inspiration and an example of courage and perseverance. Please consider donating.

                    Fundraising Page

                      This is something I've been thinking about a lot recently. About a month or so ago, running started to become very difficult for me. I have a few ideas about what might be going on, but the bottom line for me is that I'm now running slower and shorter runs. These runs feel just as "hard" as they used to, so I feel like I'm getting similar benefits - although, I do realize that I'm not at the same "level" as before. I'm mathematically minded, so it's like my slope is similar, but I'm at a lower point on the curve.

                      5k - 25:15 (11/18/12)

                      10k - 1:01:51 (2/14/15)

                      10mi - 1:33:18 (3/2/14)

                      HM - 2:06:12 (3/24/13)

                       

                      Upcoming Races:

                      Benched until further notice. :/

                       

                      Everything you need is already inside. [[Bill Bowerman]]

                         People want to hit that pace even if it's hot and humid when the sensible thing would be to ease up and go by effort.  And especially in hills, effort is key.

                         

                        Haha, yes.  I remember being chastised by LTH for trying to do GMP on a 90 degree day after breaking down to a walk.  (Yes, there was a hot day here.  One time.  Smile)

                        Docket_Rocket


                           

                          Haha, yes.  I remember being chastised by LTH for trying to do GMP on a 90 degree day after breaking down to a walk.  (Yes, there was a hot day here.  One time.  Smile)

                           

                          Lol.  That's what we call Spring.

                          Damaris

                           

                          As part of the 2024 London Marathon, I am fundraising for VICTA, a charity that helps blind and visually impaired children. My mentor while in law school, Jim K (a blind attorney), has been a huge inspiration and an example of courage and perseverance. Please consider donating.

                          Fundraising Page

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