Trail Monster
I'm deeply contemplating refocusing my running towards getting faster after I finish out my race list for the year. I will have a nice base after all this ultra training (on track for 1800+ for the year) and I'm ready to see what I could really do in shorter race. (5k thru half). So I want to start adding in speed work after I recover from Burning River. Therefore I'm asking for your favorite, hardest, make you puke speed workouts to add to my training. And any advice on turning my ultra training into speed a few months down the road too.
2013 races:
3/17 Shamrock Marathon
4/20 North Coast 24 Hour
7/27 Burning RIver 100M
8/24 Baker 50M
10/5 Oil Creek (distance to be determined)
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FitFluential
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Smaller By The Day
I don't have any experience in 5K type speed work. I've played around with repeats and intervals when not preparing for a specific race, but not much.
I was looking at your training log. Do you ever add in any tempo runs or marathon paced runs to your ultra training? For now, maybe you could work in a couple of tempo bouts during one of your runs, and some marathon pace running during some of your long runs.
Improvements
Weight 100 pounds lost
5K 31:02 Sept. 2012 / 23:36 Sept. 2013 (Same Course)
10K 48:59 April 2013
HM 2:03:56 Nov. 2012 / 1:46:50 March 2013
MARATHON 3:57:33 Nov. 2013
For me, "R" pace workouts are about as tough (and fun, in a sick way) as it gets. "R" pace is your mile pace or a little faster for most people, my fave is a straight 8 to 10 X 400's at "R" pace with 400 meter recoveries.
I also enjoy ladder workouts (combining different paces within the same workout), my fave of those is 2 X 1200's at 10k pace, 2 X 1000's at 5k pace, then 2 X 800's at "R" pace. With those, you build up to your fastest pace, but you could also start with the fastest pace and work your way down.
The are a million variations to those and the options are endless. It would be a good idea to get a book and learn why we run certain paces, for what distances/times, and when to run them.
I don't have any experience in 5K type speed work. I've played around with repeats and intervals when not preparing for a specific race, but not much. I was looking at your training log. Do you ever add in any tempo runs or marathon paced runs to your ultra training? For now, maybe you could work in a couple of tempo bouts during one of your runs, and some marathon pace running during some of your long runs.
I race almost every weekend and, depending how I feel, that is my speed work. I just did a 24:40 5k on Saturday as part of a 55 mile week. I also did a hilly half two weeks ago in 2:11 (my PR is 2:01 so that was pretty fast). If you looked over my last few weeks you probably noticed my pace varies from high 8's to 13's, so I definitely get a lot of variety in pace and push some runs harder than others. I'm not doing anything fast from here to BR because its not worth getting injured or worn down with less than 4 weeks to go. I'm pretty sure I will see a big boost in performance 2-3 weeks post hundred just because I won't be running on tired legs constantly anymore.
I'm more thinking of backing down the mileage to 30-ish per week and adding a dedicated speed work day each week over the fall/winter with hopes of setting a 5k PR in the spring (Current PR is 24:27 and would love to hit 23's). Also want to finally get my sub-2 half.
For me, "R" pace workouts are about as tough (and fun, in a sick way) as it gets. "R" pace is your mile pace or a little faster for most people, my fave is a straight 8 to 10 X 400's at "R" pace with 400 meter recoveries. I also enjoy ladder workouts (combining different paces within the same workout), my fave of those is 2 X 1200's at 10k pace, 2 X 1000's at 5k pace, then 2 X 800's at "R" pace. With those, you build up to your fastest pace, but you could also start with the fastest pace and work your way down. The are a million variations to those and the options are endless. It would be a good idea to get a book and learn why we run certain paces, for what distances/times, and when to run them.
Thanks. I have a couple books and such but most are focused on marathons. I'm really interested in learning more about sharpening my 5k times to start with.
I'm not sure how I forgot about all of the races. I'm just starting to use the training log. So, I'm not the best at reading yet either...lol It sounds like what you're looking to do is something that I'm not going to be too helpful with. My best bet will be to sit back and read what others recommend, just in case I ever decide to go that direction.
Jess runs for bacon
I do this when I got stuck on the treadmill. I usually warm up for a half mile or so, then every .05 miles I hit the speed button. I usually try to hold for a half mile at HM pace for a half mile, then when I get up to 10k pace I'll hold that for a half mile, then keep going up until I don't think I can go a whole lot faster (will usually end at what is probably 1mm faster than my mile pace, not sure since I haven't done a mile in forever). Then a cool down. Sometimes I do more than one set of this.
I don't feel like I am going to puke when I am done, usually I feel invigorated. I save the pukey feelings for 5ks.
Are we there, yet?
Seems like I have a few options on how to respond:
1) favorite speed workout
2) toughest speed workouts
3) best speed workouts for your goals
They aren't synonymous and any that fit #2 probably shouldn't be run by anyone seriously training anyway.
BTW don't drop your mileage unless you have to. Maintaining that base will stand you in good stead for racing as short as 5K and you definitely want it if you're going to race at the HM distance.
1) My favorites are 400m and 800m intervals at 3K to 5K race pace with half the distance as a jog recovery. The number of intervals depends on my current weekly mileage but 12 x 400m or 6 x 800m are what I work toward.
3) My favorites may be the best for your goals since you have a good base and with frequent racing don't really need to incorporate much in the way of tempo runs.
Now for # 2. I have two that come to mind, both of which should leave you ready to curse me for ever suggesting them.
a) On a 400m track start jogging at an easy pace, say 10:00 pace. Keep running continuously but each lap should be 5 seconds faster than the previous. Keep this up until you can't run a lap any faster, e.g. your lap times would be 2:30, 2:25, 2:20, 2:15, 2:10, 2:05, 2:00, 1:55, 1:50, 1:45, 1:40, 1:35. (Note by this time you have run almost 3 miles and your last mile was about 6:50, your last 800m was 3:15). Of course you don't stop here assuming you made it to 1:35. Now you get to try for 1:30 with a last mile of 6:30 and a last 800m of 3:05.
b) The second is a very simple pyramid series. Start with 200m at 3K, jog 200 recovery, increment both the interval and recovery by 200m but maintain the 3K race pace. Continue until you reach 1200m. Now work down the pyramid starting with another 1200m, decrement by 200m until you're back down to a final 200m. The catch is that as you come down the pyramid each step is run at a slightly faster pace. By the time you reach the bottom with the last 200m you should be running close to 800m race pace.
You did ask, and I have done both these workouts, though I was much younger then, and started the first at 2:00 working my way down to 1:05. I couldn't make 1:00. The second I worked my up at 5:00 mile pace and worked my way down to finish my final 200m in about :32.
A variation on the first is to run a 12 x 400m interval workout with a 400m recovery with this twist. Let's say you want to average 1:41 for the workout (mile race pace). Start at 1:52 and run each interval 2 seconds faster. So your 12 400s would be 1:52, 1:50, 1:48, 1:46, 1:44, 1:42, 1:40, 1:38, 1:36, 1:34, 1:32, 1:30. (I tried starting at 82 and working my way down to 60.)
2024 Races:
03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles
05/11 - D3 50K 05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour
06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.
Favorite workout - 12 x 400 @ 1 mile race pace with 400 recoveries. Those are really fast but you take such long recoveries that it's not terribly difficult.
Toughest shortish workout - 7 x 1,200 @ 5K race pace with 400 recoveries. (This is very difficult). (No. It's a lot harder than that).
Shoot me because I'd feel better dead workout - 2 miles easy + 4 miles @ tempo pace + 10 miles easy + 2 miles @ tempo pace + 4 miles easy.
Short term goal: 17:59 5K
Mid term goal: 2:54:59 marathon
Long term goal: To say I've been a runner half my life. (I started running at age 45).
Cyber-bro
12x400 w 200 recovery @ 3k pace.
DON'T BRO ME IF YOU DON'T KNOW ME
Okay, next logical question.
how do I determine 3k pace, mile pace, etc? And how do I figure out where 300 or any other odd interval is on a 400m track?
If you can't tell I never ran track so this is going to be weird for me.
Okay, next logical question. how do I determine 3k pace, mile pace, etc? And how do I figure out where 300 or any other odd interval is on a 400m track? If you can't tell I never ran track so this is going to be weird for me.
Race a 5k and plug the time into McMillan's calculator.
I would stick with increments of 200 on the track.
Favorite? Probably 10ish miles with 10x 2:00 @ 5K pace, variable recovery depending on desired masochism.
Least favorite is something like 12 with 8 @ HMP. Not once the speedwork actually starts, but because those first easy ones feel like walking the green (4) mile(s).
I posted this in a different thread but I think it works well for me.
How soon do I start to feel the effects of the effort? Not, "how soon do I finally crap out" but when do I start having to focus on maintaining my pace? Think about it this way. No matter how slowly you go, even if it's just a walk, you'll eventually start to feel some discomfort from the effort. It might take 4 or 5 hours but you will eventually feel it. Conversely, sprint as fast as you can and you'll feel the discomfort in less than 10 seconds. So, here is when I start feeling some discomfort in my workouts.
1. Easy pace: 90-120 minutes (Note that I never feel discomfort on my typical daily run because I'm not out there long enough).
2. Marathon pace: 45-60 minutes
3. Tempo pace: 10-20 minutes
4. VO2max interval pace: 90-120 seconds
5. Speed rep pace: 45-60 seconds
A track is precisely 400 meters in circumference in the first lane. Each straight is 100 meters as is each curve.
Really though, buy Daniels Running Formula. Seriously. Buy it.
You could goggle 400m track marking, but what you'd get would probably confuse you more than help. Here's the basics.
1) At the end of one of the straights there will be a straight line the goes across all the lanes. It will be labeled Finish/Start or Common Finish/Start. Everything is relative to that line and where it is on the track.
2) Around the curve at the beginning of the other straight 100m from the Start there could be any of several markings. The most common are a curved line across the track marked as 1500m Start. On many HS tracks there will also be a line across just lane 1 with a number 1 just in from of it. Since it is 100m from the start, it is 300m from there to the Finish.
3) At the end of that straight (another 100m and you are now halfway around) you should find a curved line across the track marked 3000m Start. There will also be a straight line across just lane 1 with a 1 in front of it again. This is the start of the 200m. There will be lines across each lane with the lane number in front, each a little farther around the curve.
4) At the end of the curve, which is the beginning of the first straight, there will be a straight line across the entire track labeled 100m Start. You are now 300m around the track with 100m left to get back where you started. Not to confuse you but there will be another straight line across the track, but it does not come all the way across to the curb for lane 1. It stops at the extension of lane 1 past where the curve ends. That is for the 110m hurdles. Ignore it.
5) Continue down the straight to where you began your 400m circuit.
Now have I thoroughly confused you?