I am reading the Hanson's Marathon project book right now and they recommend not to string 2 substance workouts together. Tuesday speed, Wednesday easy or recovery or rest, Thursday tempo, Friday easy again. They don't exceed 10 miles for an easy run either. Now with Pfitz you will exceed the 10 mile barrier for midweek MLRs. The canned version of Pfitz 18-55 looks like they will separate the substance workouts with easy/GA runs or recovery runs as well. Its all part of managing the cumulative fatigue we experience with the higher mileage plans.
I am reading the Hanson's Marathon project book right now and they recommend not to string 2 substance workouts together. Tuesday speed, Wednesday easy or recovery or rest, Thursday tempo, Friday easy again. They don't exceed 10 miles for an easy run either.
Now with Pfitz you will exceed the 10 mile barrier for midweek MLRs. The canned version of Pfitz 18-55 looks like they will separate the substance workouts with easy/GA runs or recovery runs as well.
Its all part of managing the cumulative fatigue we experience with the higher mileage plans.
I agree and am a believer in alternating Hard-Easy. Or at least not going hard-hard back to back very often. I think it is also important as you get older to give yourself recovery time after a hard workout. To LtH's point if I go out for an "easy" run the day after a hard workout I can tell whether I pushed myself enough.
Mmmmm...beer
Taking notes, cause one of these days, probably in the very near future, I'm gonna have to suck it up and start doing some speed work.
-Dave
My running blog
Goals | sub-18 5k | sub-3 marathon 2:56:46!!
PS, I think a thread like this would be just fine in General Running, and there are some really experienced runners who might give very helpful feedback
I appreciate the info. I was trying to plan out my week and I know it takes me a day or two to recover from tempo runs (two days last week, but that was my first speed work out since September and I might've pushed too hard on that run), but I wasn't sure how much I should/could push it after doing the 6x800m intervals I was going to do tonight. The intervals are "only" inside of a 9 mile run, so I was wondering if I could/should try a MLR tomorrow instead of my recovery run. Clearly, you all are saying that I'll be too trashed to try anything substantive tomorrow, so that's good to know. I try to plan out the week as best as I can beforehand b/c my hubby comes home a little earlier the days I do MLRs.
Go figure
I kinda like Hudson's rough sketch for runners in the 60-80 range and doing doubles:
Mon - AM easy + hill sprints PM easy
Tue - Hard (i.e. intervals)
Wed - AM moderate (like fatlek or easy miles + progression) PM easy
Thur - Easy
Fri - Hard
Sat - AM easy PM easy
Sun - Long
More to your question, it's not always easy right after hard, but it's not two exclusively hard efforts consecutively either. I've really started to believe that the theory about running your easy miles easy and your hard miles hard is the true key.
Trying to find some more hay to restock the barn
Chief Unicorn Officer
My easy pace and recovery pace are pretty different--and I rarely run at recovery pace. Usually only the day (or two days) after a long race like a HM. My easy pace is usually easy enough for the day after a tempo or track session. Easy pace for me is around 8:40, recovery around 9:30.
Mile 5:49 - 5K 19:58 - 10K 43:06 - HM 1:36:54
These are my same paces too, pretty much, MJ, however, we are SO different in how it shakes out in practice! I run at recovery pace 3 days a week now that I am transitioning to running 7 days a week (it was 2 recovery days + 1 rest day previously, when I ran 6 days a week). I run my 2 MLRs and my Sunday LR at easy pace and then that one speed day (well, last week was the first week integrating speed work back in post-marathon) at (obviously) a faster pace. I wish I could run faster on one of those recovery days, but I can't right now b/c I need the rest. Maybe when I get use to the higher mileage (I bumped my mileage up slightly the last few weeks). I am noticing that when I run my MLRs and LRs, I'm running them faster then I use to, so I guess that's the trade off to running that slower recovery pace 3 days a week. It's interesting, though, to see how well/quickly you bounce back from a hard work out, but you have lots and lots of practice w/speed work. I hope I get there some day.
YES! This is what I've been making more of a concerted effort to do. I really like the way it's playing out, actually. Well put. It's good to know that you agree, though!!!
Heidi, have you set up a checkpoint for 'if I can't hit the paces I want by X, I'll do Y' ?
Interesting topic since I'm considering just that point as I'm planning to start a Pfitz 18/70 cycle at the end of December. I'm slooooowly building back miles since the IMM earlier this month and have found that I just need to listen to my body as it seems to be taking a bit longer to recover this time around.
ETA... I've also found it harder to run as fast in the cold ... not sure if it's just the extra clothing, the temperature itself or a combination of the two.
Train smart ... race smarter.
When I was HM training last year I would often do my MLR's as my tempo/interval days. I believe by definition a MLR is anywhere between 11-15 mile run. I would do a long warm up at easy pace followed by 30-40 minutes of intervals/tempo and finish up with whatever miles I needed to accomplish the miles I wanted for the day. These were particularly hard but I had a lot of success with it. My normal week looked something like this:
Monday: 6 Easy/rest--Usually the 6
Tuesday: Interval-11-13 miles total
Wednesday: Recovery 6-8
Thursday: Tempo 13-15 total
Friday: 6-8 Recovery
Sat: 5-7 easy
Sunday: long run 16-20