I've been reading the replies to music_girl's 1 mile training query with interest. I don't have any long races on the near horizon, so I want to focus on shorter distances for the next few months, specifically a goal 5k on July 4. I've run it the last two years. 2013 was in 29:45 and 2014 was in 29:22. Based on my recent 10k of 57:48, McMillan suggests I can run a 5k in 27:50. I'm skeptical, but I sure would love to run it in 27:XX!!
Any advice for me on training and pacing? The other post had me asking myself the following questions: Should I do two speed workouts a week as LRB suggested to MG? Skip hill training for now? Focus on 800s vs the 400s recommended to MG?
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Are you running five days a week? If so, then I agree with LRB; do two speed workouts a week, probably a tempo run and intervals. Then you have two easy runs and a longer run for your five days. You might want to invest in the Daniels third edition book. He has some excellent plans for all distances and plenty of sound advice.
I saw the most gains in my 5k after training for half marathons.I did 1/4 intervals on the road, so hills got mixed in. I didn't know any better, so I only took minute rest between intervals.
If the 5k has hills, keep the hill training.
You can skim through the Half Higdon plans on line. They are free.
My 5k is faster than what the calculators say it should be based on my recent half. Or my half was slower than it should gave been based on the 5k three weeks out.
The summer leading up to my current 5k pr consisted of 4-5 runs/week including 3 easy runs, 1 tempo, and usually a set of 400s at the track. I averaged ~20-25mpw for the 5 months leading up to my pr race. In hindsight, I think I took it a little too easy on the tempo runs, and I only had a few runs of over 6 miles. Otherwise, I think I could have squeezed out a few more seconds.
I'm leery of the race calculators. My 5k PR suggests a half of 1:37, but I'm aiming for sub-1:45 next week. Based on my training, I know I'm not in 1:37 shape.
PRs:
5k - 20:51 - 9/5/15
10k - 47:00 - 5/25/15
15k - 1:10:19 - 11/21/15
13.1 - 1:42:25- 4/25/15
26.2 - TBD (someday)
Should I do two speed workouts a week as LRB suggested to MG?
That was on the assumption that someone is running 6 days a week, although I have done it during a 5 day phase with the intensity/quantity adjusted to reflect that.
Honestly at our level any type of consistent running with a modicum of quality mixed in is going to yield results. I am a big proponent of the why so for that I would suggest picking up a book and learning why it is you are running the paces and distances you are, and more importantly what it is you are trying to achieve.
That said 5 x 1000's with 400 meter rests was the first speed workout suggested to me and it remains a stalwart to this day. You can vary the pace by day doing 10k one day and 5k on another but it is a simple yet effective way to introduce some good solid quality into your running program without getting too complicated.
Are you running five days a week? If so, then I agree with LRB; do two speed workouts a week, probably a tempo run and intervals. Then you have two easy runs and a longer run for your five days....
That was on the assumption that someone is running 6 days a week, although I have done it during a 5 day phase with the intensity/quantity adjusted to reflect that. ...
...
I'm running 5 - 6 days a week. (well not for the last couple of weeks, but now that we've finished moving house I'll be back at it). And both of you suggested picking up a book, so I guess I'll add Daniels to my collection.
... My 5k is faster than what the calculators say it should be based on my recent half. Or my half was slower than it should gave been based on the 5k three weeks out.
... I'm leery of the race calculators. My 5k PR suggests a half of 1:37, but I'm aiming for sub-1:45 next week. Based on my training, I know I'm not in 1:37 shape.
I don't know what to do with the calculators. Seriously, right now I plug in the 10k time and think "there's no way I can do that 5k time, I must be more of an endurance runner" and then I look at the HM and marathon predicted times and think there's no way I can do those either...,,maybe 10k is the right distance for me!
I like this thread! I'm looking forward to putting two HM's in my rear view mirror and then changing the focus on future races. I always thought of myself as a sprinter. Long distance? No way. Now that I know I can, maybe I should focus on the why. Go back to what feels more natural.
Kathleen
2015 Goals:
Sub 30 5K
Sub 60 10K
I would bag two speed workouts. Do one interval session and maybe another where you can run on some rolling hills [at easy run pace or fartlek]. I would also suggest you do longer repeats than 400-800m if less than 5 minutes [while maintaining 5k or slightly faster pace].
Youth Has No Age. ~ Picasso / 1st road race: Charleston Distance Run 15 Miler - 1974 / profile
Regarding race predictors/calculators, everyone has their own opinion but I embrace them. For me, on the one hand they represent the minimum race time I should be shooting for. On the other (which is why some people loathe them) they may limit you so you have to take them with a grain of salt.
Take the 10k for example, where you hear many people say they do not know how to race them. My 10k goal times are based on the Daniels race equivalency charts and are derived off of my 5k time. It is a time that even on my worst day I try to achieve (unless I am having a really bad day of course). How is this possible? Well my tempo pace (which is also Daniels based) is right in the neighborhood of it so I am used to running it. But ultimately I refuse to run too far away from it because it is important to me to hit it...or faster than it as has been the case some days.
There was a point last year where my mile, 5k, 10k and half marathon times were lined up pretty closely. Of course, once that occurs it indicates that one of those times is soft, and it is time to start the process all over again.
Regarding your predicted 1:37 half marathon CJ1, it just might be that you are not ready to accept or tackle the idea mentally that you can run that time and that's okay. But if it were me, I would definitely try to train in the ballpark of it.
Perhaps your training load will increase over the summer to where you can attempt it in the fall or next spring. In the meantime though if I were you I would keep an open mind towards the idea for sure.
That is at least until a solid season of training and a race (or two or three or four) prove that you cannot but from following your progress in the dailies, there is no doubt you could stand to step it up a notch or two if you decided based on your current mileage and training load.
Regarding your predicted 1:37 half marathon CJ1, it just might be that you are not ready to accept or tackle the idea mentally that you can run that time and that's okay. But if it were me, I would definitely try to train in the ballpark of it. Perhaps your training load will increase over the summer to where you can attempt it in the fall or next spring. In the meantime though if I were you I would keep an open mind towards the idea for sure. That is at least until a solid season of training and a race (or two or three or four) prove that you cannot but from following your progress in the dailies, there is no doubt you could stand to step it up a notch or two if you decided based on your current mileage and training load.
Im fairly certain you're 100% right. Mentally I am not prepared to run a 1:37. Once I have a good solid race under my belt next week, that may change. I am also notorious for being too conservative in races. My 5k pr is really the only one where I felt like I had nothing left at the end. Well actually I felt like that at the end of my previous HM, but I was severely undertrained for that one. It's possible I just need to risk a blowup in a longer race to see what I'm capable of. Thanks for the input.
Are we there, yet?
For a 5K I'd opt for 800m and 1000m intervals. For a second quality workout I'd probably alternate weeks with a 20 minute tempo run and a medium long run working the hills. You need to keep the LR too.
On your log, for it to be of more use to us in commenting on your training, it helps to log the intervals like you did on yesterday's workout. and breakout the time and pace or time and distance of the tempo portion of your tempo workouts, e.g. 20 minutes at 9:00 pace or 2.25 miles in 20:00.
The pace on your interval recoveries is very slow. Are you walking or jogging the recovery? You should be jogging it. If you need to walk, you're probably running the intervals too fast.
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I agree with LRB re: the race calculators - my HM goal time is based on my 5K/10K PRs from the fall, which are pretty closely in line with one another (10K could have been a little bit closer if I had raced one previously, it was my first so I went out conservatively). With more miles overall, longer long runs, and HM specific work, I think it should be doable. I also don't race often because I take forever to recover from race effort, so when I do race I'm mentally prepared to trust the training, attack it and cross the finish line with nothing left to give.
I bet you'd be surprised at the times you could run for 5K with a little specific training under your belt. Half of the battle is getting comfortable with being uncomfortable - tempos especially were really helpful for me in developing that ability.
As far as training, I agree with everything George said. Last summer/fall I gave some thought to the workouts I did, but didn't worry so much about exactly what I was doing since I knew I'd see improvement just from being consistent and getting in *any* kind of workout from week to week. My log is open and you're welcome to check out what I did, I ran some longer intervals (800s up to mile repeats), some hills, some tempo runs, weekly long run. Some shorter intervals here and there just because it's fun to run faster than race pace once in a while. I started off the summer running 1 workout a week and when I was comfortable with doing that consistently I added in the second one.
wcrunner, I'm curious about jogging the rest portion of intervals, especially being a not fast runner. A lot of the discussion on RW forums and intervals comes from people running 6mm or faster and then "slowing" to 10 mm. If you are doing 8mm intervals and slow at the same rate as the 6mm person, it is walking speed.
In the past, I had a decent amount of success doing a really short recovery (1 minute) of walking between intervals.
wcrunner, I'm curious about jogging the rest portion of intervals, especially being a not fast runner. A lot of the discussion on RW forums and intervals comes from people running 6mm or faster and then "slowing" to 10 mm. If you are doing 8mm intervals and slow at the same rate as the 6mm person, it is walking speed. In the past, I had a decent amount of success doing a really short recovery (1 minute) of walking between intervals.
When I was running intervals at 6:00 pace, my recovery pace was closer to 8:00-8:30, not 10:00. Running intervals at 8:00 pace, my recovery jog would be closer to 11:00 pace. At least for me that is not walking speed.
Length of recovery is dependent on what kind of interval and length of interval. Your recovery will be a lot shorter running tempo or cruise intervals than when running VO2Max intervals. Some runners lump what Daniels refers to a repeats under intervals also. These being faster than 5K pace (closer to mile race pace), the recovery would also be longer. With cruise and tempo intervals I'll keep the recovery to about a quarter of the distance. With VO2Max intervals it's half the distance, and with repeats it's equal distance.
... The pace on your interval recoveries is very slow. Are you walking or jogging the recovery? You should be jogging it. If you need to walk, you're probably running the intervals too fast.
At the end of each sprint interval, I walked until I couldn't feel my heart pounding in my ears anymore, then I picked it up to a slow jog until I was ready for the next interval. Yes, it did seem very fast, but it's the pace McMillan suggests for 800s based on my 10k time.