Beginners and Beyond

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Help me pick a marathon plan! (Read 74 times)

Zelanie


    I am training for the Portland Marathon, which will be my first.  It's in October.  Since whatever plan I pick will become a huge part of my life for most of the summer and fall, I'd like to make sure that I'm choosing one that's going to be a good fit.  Also, even though it will be a debut marathon, I think I have enough of a base that I absolutely plan to run it as a race, not just an "experience the marathon" sort of event.  So I want a plan that will be challenging enough to get me to the starting line well prepared.

     

    Background on me:

    I've been running for about two years, and my 3rd HM is this coming Sunday.  I trained for two of my HMs using the 50-MPW plan in Pfitz's "Road Running for Serious Runners."  I'm really comfortable in the 40-some MPW level now, and can run up to 50 MPW with speedwork (LR, MLR, and speedwork a la Pfitz).  I've run up to 70 MPW before with no speedwork, but honestly that week took a lot out of me.  For LR's, I've done 15 so far a few times.  I'm pretty consistent with my training and can comfortably run 6 days a week or doubles if needed.

     

    My weaknesses:

    I think I'm still new enough that my body hasn't necessarily adapted to the level of training that the mind and lungs are really wanting to do.  I'd love to peak at 70 MPW, but I don't know that's realistic this time around.  I'm pretty sure I could get up into the mid-60s, though, over the course of my training.  But I might have to adjust that depending on how things go.

     

    I'm used to doing my long runs as true long slow runs.  I mean, they've been in the proper pace range according to the Daniels calculator, but I haven't run a lot of MP miles or done much work on pace on LR days.  Realistically, I think I'd be able to add to the distance of my LRs, OR add quality work to my LRs, but I don't know that I could do both.

     

    I probably am a slower runner than what most of the authors of plans are considering, so if the long runs are by distance, I could probably only do 18 miles before going over the "3 hour" limit that I hear about.

     

    Other considerations:

    I'll be in San Jose, Costa Rica from June-August.  During that time, I won't have a regular job, but I will be on call 24/7, so I'm not sure how that will impact my training.  I should have more overall time to train than I usually do, really.  It's just that if I am called away, I might not have the ability to make up a run.  I don't know exactly where I'll be staying, but I expect it to be safe to run alone during daylight hours, and not safe at night.  There are gyms available, but it doesn't look like I can expect 24-hour access as far as ability to fit runs in to odd hours if I need to.

     

    Plans I'm NOT considering:

    Higdon: Probably unreasonably biased against him, but it would take a strong argument to convince me otherwise.

    Running Wizard: Actually might be a good fit for me another time, but when I'm in Costa Rica I may have limited access to the internet and to a scale, so this time around it doesn't seem practical.

     

    Plans I am considering:


    Daniels' "4-week cycle": I like the idea of the 4-week "mini cycles" , and it sort of looks like you can choose a reasonable mileage target for each 4-week cycle and maybe adjust for the next one.  So I could build up as far as I could each cycle, but don't have to decide on a firm mileage peak right away (either that or he really does have you running peak miles for the first time 22 weeks before the marathon, in which case, wtf?).  I like that most of the LRs are by time, although there are a few mileage-based ones.  Maybe that's a good balance?  The higher-mileage week with no speedwork every 4th week sort of appeals to me and the way I've run so far.  The "16 miles at MP plus 50 minutes easy" run is a serious WTF, though.  Although those start at 10 miles at MP and build up, so I guess I'd know what to expect going in to that one.

     

    Hansons: I don't have the book yet, it should be here on Tuesday.  Capping the LR at 16 but focusing on running it at a faster pace does sound like it might be a good fit for me, though.  That would keep me well within the 3-hour window the whole time, and maybe help me focus on not letting my LRs become long, slow slogs.  I should be able to handle the higher overall volume during the rest of the week, I think.  But, like I said, I haven't had a chance to look over what's in the book yet.

     

    Pfitz 18/55 or 18/70: I was originally considering these, because I have seen firsthand the results of his HM plans. Smile  They push me, but I also get better!  And tired.  I am probably not the 20-something 6-minute-miler that I suspect he's writing for, though, and I wonder if his long runs and medium long runs would just be too much time on my feet at my pace.  Also, I think I fall somewhere awkwardly between 55 and 70 MPW as a target peak level.

     

    Thoughts, suggestions, and other perspectives are welcome! Smile

    wcrunner2


    Are we there, yet?

      Hanson's is every bit as demanding as Pfitzinger, maybe more so. My first thought was to continue with Pftizinger using the 18/55 plan. You should be able to adapt that to higher mileage by focusing on hitting the quality workouts, including the LRs, and padding your easy runs a little. Certainly you can do that in the early weeks before the mileage builds up to 50-55 a week. Hudson is another one to consider, but again very demanding if you follow it closely.

       2024 Races:

            03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

            05/11 - D3 50K
            05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour

            06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.

       

       

           

      StepbyStep-SH


        I have basically followed Pfitz 18/55 a couple of times, but with an additional day (recovery run the day after long run) and lengthen out some of the "everyday" runs a bit, especially in the beginning, to peak in the 60-65 mpw range.  I have an excel spreadsheet that lays out the 18/55 and 18/70 plans side-by-side, so you can more easily see how to find a middle ground between the two. I tried uploaded it to GoogleDocs, but am having trouble getting it to show up right - if you are interested, PM me an email address and I will send it to you.

        20,000 miles behind me, the world still to see.

        onemile


          I've had good luck with Hansons. I used their Advanced plan twice.  It's harder than it looks on paper and has more faster paced running than Pfitz (and harder IMO).

          workinprogress11


            Hanson's is every bit as demanding as Pfitzinger, maybe more so. My first thought was to continue with Pftizinger using the 18/55 plan. You should be able to adapt that to higher mileage by focusing on hitting the quality workouts, including the LRs, and padding your easy runs a little. Certainly you can do that in the early weeks before the mileage builds up to 50-55 a week. Hudson is another one to consider, but again very demanding if you follow it closely.

            Pfitz 18/55 with some additional easy miles was going to be my recommendation as well.  Whatever you decide, though, I know you will give it your all and have a very successful first marathon.

            Docket_Rocket


              I would choose Pfitz 18/55  and try to accommodate the weeks in Costa Rica.  Hanson is harder to change and accommodate.  And you've used Pfitz before.  Good luck!

              Damaris

               

              As part of the 2024 London Marathon, I am fundraising for VICTA, a charity that helps blind and visually impaired children. My mentor while in law school, Jim K (a blind attorney), has been a huge inspiration and an example of courage and perseverance. Please consider donating.

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              daisymae25


              Squidward Bike Rider

                Another vote for Pfitzinger 18/55. I had good results with it with my last full. Only thing I tweaked was the speed work; I did Yasso 800s just to see how effective they would be; I think they went well.

                  Another vote for Pfitzinger 18/55. I had good results with it with my last full. Only thing I tweaked was the speed work; I did Yasso 800s just to see how effective they would be; I think they went well.

                   

                  Add another for Pfitz 18/55.  You're already familiar with his HM plans, and so it shouldn't be too scary to tweak things slightly to fit your needs while following the general framework.

                  Jack K.


                  uʍop ǝpᴉsdn sǝʇᴉɹʍ ʇI

                    If you don't mind running 15 miles on tired legs on a Wednesday night after work, I vote for the Pfitz 18/55. Adjust as you go, if you have to. I stuck to the whole thing from beginning to end and ran a great race.

                    wcrunner2


                    Are we there, yet?

                      Zelanie, I ran my first marathon after about 2 years of running. While my mileage was a little higher than yours, 50-55 mpw, the biggest difference was my inclusion of a lot more quality speed work than most of the marathon plans include. While unconventional, I think it was one of the reasons I ran so well in my first. That was long before there were any books about how to train for a marathon, but my training was probably closest to Hanson's. When looking at plans, I would consider how flexible they are for including shorter races. I also think my more extensive racing experience over distances from 5K to 20K helped when it came to pacing and discipline. That also made marathon pace seem incredibly easy since it was a minute per mile slower than what I was used to racing.

                       2024 Races:

                            03/09 - Livingston Oval Ultra 6-Hour, 22.88 miles

                            05/11 - D3 50K
                            05/25 - What the Duck 12-Hour

                            06/17 - 6 Days in the Dome 12-Hour.

                       

                       

                           

                      happylily


                        Before completing my first marathon, I had done 3 HMs. A 1:54, a 1:46 and after my stroke, a 1:51. I ran a 3:55 first marathon one month after my 1:51 HM time trial. I believe that was exactly McMillan's equivalent time. The 18/55 plan by Pfitz helped me a lot. I would say try to focus on the speedwork and the longer runs, but that's just me. Other people will tell you that overall mileage is more important and maybe they are right. We all have a different style when it comes to training, and since none of us are making a living out of this, it's important to find what is enjoyable to us. You will be a great marathon runner, that I know for a fact.  And I can't wait to read about your adventures in Costa Rica!

                        PRs: Boston Marathon, 3:27, April 15th 2013

                                Cornwall Half-Marathon, 1:35, April 27th 2013

                        18 marathons, 18 BQs since 2010

                        Brrrrrrr


                        Uffda

                          Personally I've enjoyed the Daniel's Marathon plan. It's a fairly customizable plan which centers around 2 quality workouts. From there you just take a percentage of your peak miles and figure out the Easy miles you'll run in the week. He's got a few MP workouts, so you'll get used to running at MP prior to your Marathon.

                           

                          The advice here has been fairly one-sided, and maybe for a good reason. If you want to take a look at what a Daniel's plan looks like with 60 miles, take a look at my Training Plan on it, in my log.

                          - Andrew

                          LRB


                            We all have a different style when it comes to training, and since none of us are making a living out of this, it's important to find what is enjoyable to us. 

                             

                            Nicely put.

                             

                            18 weeks is a bit long for me for marathon training but that is mostly a byproduct of my desire to focus on speed work and racing.  I like Daniels because I can run my mileage how I want (days & distances) and use his percentages of that for long runs and quality work.

                             

                            That said the plan I am writing for my fall marathon is Daniels based but has elements of Pfitz and Hansons.  The thinking there is to take the best of each, or what appeals to me most from each and craft a plan accordingly.

                             

                            In any event you are a good student of our sport and will no doubt do well whichever route you choose.

                            FSocks


                            KillJoyFuckStick

                              I vote for Pftiz 18/55 plan.  Good combination of speed and endurance.  If you feel like bumping the mileage up in the earlier weeks do so. His 18/70 plan really starts to grind on the body about the midway point.

                              You people have issues 

                              Zelanie


                                Thanks for the replies, everyone!  Lots to digest.  Let me see if I can summarize.

                                 

                                Pfitz: A known quantity since I am used to following his plans.  I also have some experience moving workouts around during the week, since there's less structure to his HM plans.  So I should be able to adapt on the fly reasonably well.  Plus it sounds like others who needed more than 3 hours to finish their longest runs have managed to survive.

                                 

                                Hansons: Likely more demanding than Pfitz, plus with the firm 6 days a week and a lack of experience with their system, it might be harder to move things around during the week.  But worth reading the book and thinking through their ideas. Smile

                                 

                                Daniels: Still intriguing, need to think through his system a little bit more.

                                 

                                Overall, I have plenty of good choices.  Not a terrible position to be in!

                                 

                                Thoughts about bumping up mileage: I did that with my HM plan this time around.  I just felt like I had too much of a base to go back to 30 MPW and 10 mile LRs, which is where the plan started.  So I added a bit to my LR, my MLR, and the overall weekly mileage for the first half of the plan.   But when I got peak plan mileage, I just held there instead of continuing to build.

                                 

                                It was easy enough in the early weeks, but I must say that I really felt the fatigue catching up to me.  Holding peak mileage for a few weeks in a row is much tougher than just sort of visiting there for a week or two and then dropping back down!  So I don't know if I would add mileage like that again.  On the other hand, just because it was hard doesn't mean that it wasn't effective.

                                 

                                Another thought, and I think this was LtH's recommendation going into my current plan, was that instead of adding miles, maybe if the LRs and MLRs are easy in the early weeks, to take the opportunity to do some MP pace work during the run.  Looking back, I wonder if that wouldn't have been the better way to go for this training cycle actually.

                                 

                                wcrunner: I have Hudson's book, too, but didn't want to overcomplicate things!  The idea of adaptive training, and making sure to pay attention to how you're feeling, and adjust accordingly, has been really helpful to me during this training cycle actually.

                                 

                                Shari- I actually already have the spreadsheet, courtesy of Jack K!  That was how I figured out that the Blerch 10K fell on the weekend of the last tuneup race if I followed his plan.

                                 

                                Everyone else: Thank you so much for the feedback, personal experience, and kind words!

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