Marathon Trainers


Week of October 24th (Read 243 times)

Happy Camper

    New week, new thread. Smile

    Amores Perros 70.5 mi 9:36:05
    evanflein 48.6 mi 6:42:15
    pace2race 46.4 mi 7:35:16
    WillRunForBeer 38.8 mi 5:57:51
    Kimmie 36 mi 5:30:31
    irpete 19.1 mi 2:54:11
    AussieGirl76 11.1 mi 1:38:37
    jhallum 8.9 mi 1:15:09
    Murphy996 4 mi 43:48
    Dutchie42 3.5 mi 44:43
    Cashmason 3.4 mi 31:07
    Bugs 0 mi 0:00
    CaraH 0 mi 0:00
    dgb2n 0 mi 0:00
    theyapper66 0 mi 0:00


    7-miles this morning, nice cool 47F; weights after work.  Beautiful weather continues... 

    Determination: The feeling you get right before you try something incredibly stupid.


      Thanks for starting us off, P2R. Wow, take a look at Perry's mileage. Amazing how consistently he's up in that 70+ range.


      I'll be heading to the gym at lunch for the standard elliptical and weights. Not sure if I'll run after work or not. This past weekend's runs left me feeling a little tired.

        Thanks for starting us off, P2R. Wow, take a look at Perry's mileage. Amazing how consistently he's up in that 70+ range.


        I was going to say, who has that kind of time, but if I ran as fast as Perry does, I guess I would!

        Lou, (aka Mr. predawnrunner), MD, USA | Lou's Brews |

          OK so the race report.  I had a 5 minute PR coming in under 3:35, but I was hoping for more.


          I had followed the speedwork guidelines of the FIRST book and on paper it said I'd get a 3:40 (I can email it to you if you've never heard of it) and I had a 3:39:40.  Nobby then grabbed me and told me I was doing too much speedwork and offered his program to me.  I diligently followed it and did see some benefits in training.  The 3x10+ mile runs during the week initally kicked my butt.  I could do them, but my legs were really achy at the end of the first couple of weeks.  Then it became no problem.  I didn't see any value in the speed work outlined, because it was so short in duration, but the hills were good and I'll do that going forward.  I couldn't get close to the tempo speed/distance I was doing during the FIRST training, by the end of the Lydiard training.  My longest run was a 16 mi, and I can't say whether longer runs would have helped my time, I know mentally I was having a hard time after that point during the marathon.  Nobby's program predicted under 3:20 (a huge stretch, I wanted a 3:30). 


          I spent the night prior in a comedy club with my husband and a couple of drinks, shifting constantly in the hard chair.  Two miles into the race my butt was severly complaining, even though I had had the two days prior off from running.  For the first time ever I had forgotten my tradition of a diet coke and my body wasn't too happy about it.  The entire race I was miserable, in a real funk that I've never had happen before.  I didn't hit the wall and nothing really hurt that bad, I just couldn't get my head into it.  I lost my 3:30 pacer at the half way point but could see him until probably mile 20, I didn't see the 3:35 guy until close to the end, but obviously I finished before he did (timewise anyway, he actually crossed the finish line before I did). 


          I didn't really get much from Nobby, other than me being the one of two people the program 'didn't work' for, and his explanation that it was the other person's lack of preparation why they didn't get the results they wanted.  I was expecting him to say that maybe I just had a bad run and it happens, or maybe I'm close to the point of being as fast as I'm ever going to get.  I guess I come away from it thinking that for the next one I'll incorporate some biking cross-training as I was doing about 90 mins a week as part of the FIRST training, I'll do at least one of the speed work suggested by FIRST, ideally I'll do some core work, and from the Lydiard program I'll hope to keep up at least two 10+ mile runs a week, 3 would be great.  To summarize, I'll take the pieces from both programs that I feel I need.  I do believe the slow and steady is more important than the emphasis on speed, so my mind has been changed on that.


          Anyway, my splits are uploaded if you care to look.  The most interesting part to me is that I swear I deteriorated significantly in the last 6 miles, yet my times don't show it to the extent I thought.  There were some slower parts, but there were some late hills too.  If I didn't have my garmin on, I'd swear I was no faster than a 9:30 for the last 6 miles.  Maybe from this log you can tell me what you think I should work on, did I slow down more than I should have, indicating I need the longer runs in training the most?


            Not sure, Gen, but while it might not have been the time you wanted, a PR is a PR and not to be dismissed. Goals ahead of time might be realistic, or might just be based on some calculation and purely hypothetical. I agree Nobby's goal for you seemed a bit lofty. I'm really not so good at analyzing things like that, and it's true that so much of a marathon's outcome depends on factors you really can't control (the weather, hills, etc). I think you did great, and I also think taking bits and pieces from a couple of plans is a good idea too. There's a reason there's more than one plan out there, right?


            Elliptical and ab work after work yesterday; I had a work-lunch that I'd forgotten about so no run. Just as well, as my hamstrings felt a little beat up from the weekend. I think it's taking me a bit of time to get used to running on the snow. And it's been so warm out it's just stayed slick; it's not packing into a good base. Difficult to run on, makes the legs work a little harder than usual. Today I'll try to get out for a nice run on the roads. It's really warm today (upper 30's to 40) so the temps will be nice, just need to watch the footing a bit.

              I don't like Lydiard and I don't like Nobby.  There, I've said it.  He messed with Bugs and I think blamed it on her somehow.  Bad attitude for a coach, if you ask me (which you didn't so I'm sorry if I offend).


              Like Erika says, a PR is a PR -- extra minutes are hard at those paces, I think.


              7 miles at an in-between pace for me this morning.

              Lou, (aka Mr. predawnrunner), MD, USA | Lou's Brews |

                what do I care, you didn't say you don't like me!


                I'm trying to find the person who filled my legs with sand.  Day 10 and i'm finally able to get an 8:30pace again.  I run like a robot low on grease, all jerky.  I seem to have this cronic butt ache, it's driving me crazy. 


                  Well that tells you that you pushed yourself in your race, I think. A little extra recovery wouldn't be a bad thing.


                  (and I agree with Lou, but didn't have the nerve to say it)


                  5.3 miles on the snowy trail behind campus. Ran about 15-20 seconds per mile slower than on dry trail with the same effort. Gotta recalibrate my expectations I guess. I go thru this every fall. Sort of like me threatening to quit my job every May when it gets really nice. Roll eyes


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                    I find it difficult to analyze a bad marathon performance, because it seems like there are a lot of factors to consider, and I don't know how to evaluate and weight their relevance:

                    • VO2 conditioning
                    • leg strength/muscular endurance
                    • fueling training
                    • avoiding cramping
                    • heat & humidity
                    • hilliness
                    • carb-loading and rest in the immediate pre-race days
                    • how well the runner sharpened & peaked
                    • taper


                    I'm not achieving as long runs as I'd like, but like last year, hoping that pretty good overall volume (mileage) will help compensate. But I'd sure like to find the mental fortitude to go out and run for 4hrs some weekend.

                    It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.


                      Seems like we have had a couple of not so good experieneces with Nobby,  and it is always the runner's fault, not the coach or the program.





                      Part of me would like to run a marathon again someday, but not until I get decent times in the 10k and half marathons first.


                      I was interested in hearing about how you felt that the 10 milers mid week helped you.


                      It seemed like I was trying Pfitzinger that his tuesday fast runs and mid week 12 miler helped me get faster.


                      But I always wind up getting hurt, so wonder if my body is cut out for distance running.

                        thanks everyone  Smile


                        Yes, absolutely without a doubt the 3x10+ mile runs helped me.  To give you an example that summarizes my log from both marathons, I did the 18's and the 20's and had several days afterwards with very short or very slow recovery runs.  You have to wonder just how beneficial those runs were if I wasn't good for much in the days after.  My schedule meant that my longer runs were back to back, so there were weekends where it would be three days in a row.  Initially it was difficult and I was taking some vitamin-I at night.  After a week and a half though, it was no big deal.  Without a doubt those runs made my legs much more powerful and responsive, I could do a fast final mile even during my final run for the week.  I cannot advocate enough how good they were for me, although maybe my endurance was lacking more than the next person.  I still think those 20's are important though, but only if it's a quality run and you're able to do a decent length recovery run the next day. 

                          As far as the injuries, I can't say what has prevented mine, I had IT band issues in 2009, but that's it.  With FIRST you're doing cross-training, I only did 90 min a week on an exercise bike, but I think strengthening other muscles in your legs that aren't used for running when you're doing fast intervals AND tempos every week prevented issues.  You never know though.  (I'm buying myself an exercise bike for Christmas, from my husband).

                            My schedule meant that my longer runs were back to back, so there were weekends where it would be three days in a row.  Initially it was difficult and I was taking some vitamin-I at night.  After a week and a half though, it was no big deal.  


                            It only took a week and a half to get past it being difficult?  Or was that a typo?


                            If only a week and a half, I think you are a lot stronger than I am.



                            Lou, (aka Mr. predawnrunner), MD, USA | Lou's Brews |

                              yeah that's what I meant, I have a habit of typing as I speak, and my brain dances from topic to topic.


                              Week one I would have done a couple of 10's and then a long run 14 or so, and I got through it at the recommended pace or better, but had some lingering aches so was taking Ibuprofin.  Then week two I got through the first couple of 10's and then I was perfectly fine, no aches, no big deal.  There was one time where I bonked and was retrieved dizzy and nautious on the side of the road, but that was very poor calorie planning.


                              Although on paper the paces seemed easy, week over week my body got more tired.  My husband would roll his eyes at me as I was falling asleep at 9pm...but no achy legs (I did stretch the truth a couple of times to convince my husband to rub my legs though).   

                                We are always asleep by 9.  

                                Lou, (aka Mr. predawnrunner), MD, USA | Lou's Brews |