Low HR Training

1

8 minute Maff training pace, what next? (Read 1139 times)

    I am a 47 year old male. Ran competitive when I was in high school ( 800 meters 1:58 ) and then raced bicycles until I was around 27. Since then I have done things like recreation hockey, soccer, tennis,  and badminton. I have always run and lifted weights to stay in shape for the sports I played. I typically would run two or three times a week for 1/2 an hour reasonably quickly. For some reason about 2 months ago I got rebitten by the running bug and I dug out my old heart rate monitor and looked around to see if there had been any changes in training methods from when I was younger. I found the Mark Allen web page describing how he started Maf training so I thought I would give it  try. I run 5 days a week now, (one very easy the day before Friday soccer ) play soccer and then cycle on Saturdays to give my legs a break. Still haven't done a MAF test but here are my last 4 runs.

    My last 4 runs were as follows

    1:07     8.4 miles  131 heart rate

    1:10     8.7 miles  130 heart rate

    1:10     8.7 miles   129 heart rate

    1:11     8.9 miles   131 heart rate ( this run was a lot cooler )

    These are about an 8 min/mile pace. So what should I do now? Just keep bumping the mileage up gradually? ( I know I have been increasing too fast but I have been carefully monitoring for any unusual creaking noises and my legs sound like their usual 47 year old selves but I know I am flirting with disaster.) I think I might run a 10km in October, how many miles a week if I can only really run for 4 days with 1 easy day? Run a bit harder to get my heart rate closer to 133? I seem to have a lot of  heart rate drift and I am close to 135 for most of the last half of my runs. Should I just stop being cheap and buy " The Big Book of Endurance Training and Racing " ?

     

    Kevin

      1:07     8.4 miles  131 heart rate

      1:10     8.7 miles  130 heart rate

      1:10     8.7 miles   129 heart rate

      1:11     8.9 miles   131 heart rate ( this run was a lot cooler )

       

      You sound a lot like myself.  I got bitten by the running bug when I was 48 years old.  I am now 52 years old.  Previous to that, my passion was basketball.  I played it through out my 20s and 30s and 40s.  Mixed in with a lot of other sports like tennis, softball, biking, etc.  I did run some track and cross country in high school.

       

      In high school, my half mile time was more like 2:10.  1:58 is very impressive.

       

      8 minute pace at MAF heartrate is also very impressive.  The average HR during the first 15 minutes should not be included in the average, so the average would come out higher.  The HR can take a while to get up to steady state.  But, if you HR is only 135 near the end, then it really is not drifting that much at all.

       

      I did some running in my earlier adult years, but it was mostly half hour runs a couple of times per week, running it about as fast as I could.  When I started running again at 48 years old, I discovered that this type of running did not work for me anymore. Smile  It just beat me up too much.

       

      So, I came across this forum after looking on line and reading as much as I could about it.  I learned that I should keep my HR lower for most of my running.  But, MAF intrigued me because it was just another step lower than what I had read about.  I was mostly impressed by Jesse's FAQ.  And I knew that all of my previous sports had done a good job of developing my anaerobic systems and my higher aerobic systems, but my basic aerobic fitness was relatively poor and neglected.  So, that is why this appealed to me.

       

      For my first two years, I pretty much stuck to the method, doing all my running at MAF pace or below.  In the last two years, I have gone away from it and run above MAF a lot, but still reasonably easy.  I definitely think it is a good pace for an early base period, but after that I think it is good to mix it up with some higher heart rate runs, but still easy.

       

      That is just my opinion and what works for me.  Others, especially those who are marathoners like Jesse, or ultra type runners, running at MAF or below all the time works for them. 

       

       

      Added:  Welcome back to the sport or running.  I just love it.  At my age, it appeals to me much more than all those other sports now. 

        Hey Run48,

        We could be twins.  The running beating you up really resonates with me. Nagging leg injuries that would just pop up for no reason and then take months to go away. I am totally surprised I can run 8-1/2 miles four days in a row and no pains at all ( knock on wood )

        I took another look at my last run and added 10 minute splits to factor out the first 10 minutes from the average. I did not know that the first 10 minutes should be out of the average. I have been trying to warm up slower but it looks like the warm up is still to fast.

         

        Lap    Time    Lap Time    HR    Max    Avg    Min    Dist    min/km   
        1.    0:10:00.0    0:10:00.0    126    147    117    76    2.083    4:48   
        2.    0:20:00.0    0:10:00.0    128    136    131    124    2.131    4:41   
        3.    0:30:00.0    0:10:00.0    134    137    134    129    2.125    4:42   
        4.    0:40:00.0    0:10:00.0    135    139    136    132    2.028    4:55   
        5.    0:50:00.0    0:10:00.0    135    139    135    130    1.969    5:04   
        6.    1:00:00.0    0:10:00.0    134    138    134    130    1.902    5:15   
        7.    1:10:00.0    0:10:00.0    132    137    134    130    2.000    5:00   

         

         It looks like my heart rate average is good but my pace is dropping, so does that mean I should hold my current mileage for a bit until that gets a bit more steady?

         

        kevin

           It looks like my heart rate average is good but my pace is dropping, so does that mean I should hold my current mileage for a bit until that gets a bit more steady?

           

          It is definitely normal for the HR to drift and for you to slow a bit each mile for the same HR.  In my opinion, it seems like you have found a nice HR to train at.  You are able to cover an hour run easily and you are able to do it 4 days in a row. 

           

          Added:  I am not able to run 4 days in a row now, at the current easy pace I have been using.  So, I am running every other day.  If I stuck to MAF pace or below, it is still too much for me to run 4 days in a row for an hour.  So, every body is different.  So, that is great that you are able to do that and feel comfortable.

            neat MAF pace.. with that 1:58 800, my guess is you could get as good as 6min/mile MAF pace after a few years of training.. ok, I see you are a bit older now, but still, faster than 7min/mile MAF pace should be possible eventually.

             

            drift doesn't seem to be terrible. it could get a bit better as you keep training.

             

            10K race training is very different training, maffetone books only elaborate on how to do base building so you will have to look elsewhere for details for the anaerobic training phase. I think jack daniels stuff is a nice one.

             

            in maffetone books, the only one specific thing about anaerobic phase that is stated is that you don't need to go over 90% of your maxHR in this phase. maffetone found that it didn't give additional results if you did go over 90%. I think that's to be taken with a grain of salt, though.

             

            keep going! Smile

              It is definitely normal for the HR to drift and for you to slow a bit each mile for the same HR.  In my opinion, it seems like you have found a nice HR to train at.  You are able to cover an hour run easily and you are able to do it 4 days in a row. 

               

              Added:  I am not able to run 4 days in a row now, at the current easy pace I have been using.  So, I am running every other day.  If I stuck to MAF pace or below, it is still too much for me to run 4 days in a row for an hour.  So, every body is different.  So, that is great that you are able to do that and feel comfortable.

               

               

              I looked in your training log and noticed your MAF is set as 180-age+4 (as the test was done at a HR of 132). why the +4? that could be a deal breaker for you trying to run 4 days in a row..?

               

              I'm not questioning the decision just curious. for all I know, maybe you were totally right in adding 4 and it's just your body needing more recovery.

                I looked in your training log and noticed your MAF is set as 180-age+4 (as the test was done at a HR of 132). why the +4? that could be a deal breaker for you trying to run 4 days in a row..?

                 

                When I started running at age 48, I used 132 then.  I read somewhere that you can keep the same MAF HR for a few years.  So, I have kept it for four years now.  I also have been running injury free and have improved a little each year, so I think I was eligeble for the +5 beats too.  On top of that, I also read that once you reach your 50s, you can add +5 when your are 55 and another +5 when you are 60, or something like that.

                 

                In the end, I have concluded that once you reach the 50s, you can pretty much just keep the MAF HR you started with.  The formula supposedly is not as accurate when you start reaching the mid 50s.

                 

                I am also just taking cues from by body.  Low 130s feel easy enough to me.  I probably could do consecutive days at MAF pace, but probably not an hours worth each day.

                  I am also just taking cues from by body.  Low 130s feel easy enough to me.  I probably could do consecutive days at MAF pace, but probably not an hours worth each day.

                   

                   

                  you could try something like 40mins each day then...would that work?

                    you could try something like 40mins each day then...would that work?

                    I guess it could work.  I did it earlier this spring, and I got injured, but mostly due to overstriding issues, but partly from just doing to much.  I am going to continue to experiment with what works best for me.  But, given a preference, to say, run 3 miles per day or run 6 miles every other day, I would rather run 6 miles every other day.

                     

                    I have an idea of what I might do in the future.  When it comes to base training, I may try running almost every day at or below MAF and keep mileage the same each day, or gradually increase.  But, when the next phase comes, increase the intensity and go to every other day. 

                      I looked in your training log and noticed your MAF is set as 180-age+4 (as the test was done at a HR of 132). why the +4? that could be a deal breaker for you trying to run 4 days in a row..?

                       

                      I'm not questioning the decision just curious. for all I know, maybe you were totally right in adding 4 and it's just your body needing more recovery.

                       My training log here is not quite up to date as I have a new polar heart rate monitor and I haven't figured out where on my hard drive the hrm files are kept so I can't upload them. My average usually works out to 130-131. If I set my monitor alarm to 133 it beeps constantly over the last part of my runs as I was trying for an average of 133 and I have to go a little over that to move the average up after the warm-up. This thinking might be wrong. However I should be able to go up a couple of beats as I have been athletically active all my life. The second reason I set it plus 4 beats is that at 136 I can feel myself starting to work, below that is easy. It is almost a very clear line. The third reason I set it there is that after I got my new Polar heart rate monitor I tested what my own zone was and the range it gave me was 122 to 150, which has 136 right in the middle. ( own zone is base on heart rate variability. ) The big one though is the way that 136 feels.

                      I have been surprised at how fast my body has adapted. I went from 30 minutes 4 days running quickly to 70 minutes at Maf pace in about 5 weeks. I really did not think I could run this long.

                      regards

                      Kevin

                        I am a 47 year old male. Ran competitive when I was in high school ( 800 meters 1:58 ) and then raced bicycles until I was around 27. Since then I have done things like recreation hockey, soccer, tennis,  and badminton. I have always run and lifted weights to stay in shape for the sports I played. I typically would run two or three times a week for 1/2 an hour reasonably quickly. For some reason about 2 months ago I got rebitten by the running bug and I dug out my old heart rate monitor and looked around to see if there had been any changes in training methods from when I was younger. I found the Mark Allen web page describing how he started Maf training so I thought I would give it  try. I run 5 days a week now, (one very easy the day before Friday soccer ) play soccer and then cycle on Saturdays to give my legs a break. Still haven't done a MAF test but here are my last 4 runs.

                        My last 4 runs were as follows

                        1:07     8.4 miles  131 heart rate

                        1:10     8.7 miles  130 heart rate

                        1:10     8.7 miles   129 heart rate

                        1:11     8.9 miles   131 heart rate ( this run was a lot cooler )

                        These are about an 8 min/mile pace. So what should I do now? Just keep bumping the mileage up gradually? ( I know I have been increasing too fast but I have been carefully monitoring for any unusual creaking noises and my legs sound like their usual 47 year old selves but I know I am flirting with disaster.) I think I might run a 10km in October, how many miles a week if I can only really run for 4 days with 1 easy day? Run a bit harder to get my heart rate closer to 133? I seem to have a lot of  heart rate drift and I am close to 135 for most of the last half of my runs. Should I just stop being cheap and buy " The Big Book of Endurance Training and Racing " ?

                         

                        Kevin

                         

                        Hey Kevin,

                         

                        Welcome.

                        Nice pace at MAF. What was your pace at MAF when you started?

                         

                        If you have been progressing, you could just keep doing what you are doing until fall. Summer is a stressful time to run (I'm assuming it's summer where you are), and if you have been progressing,  a bump up in volume (especially too much too soon over what level you are at now) could make you plateau/regress. Fall would be a better time to start increasing. Ultimately, it depends what your goals are.

                         

                        I think you stop being so cheap and buy the LHRT "elders" a coffee, sit down with us, and tell us some soccer stories (love ones about the rare times games didn't end in a tie and didn't have to resort to free kicks at the goalie). Give of yourself. Cool

                         

                        Keep us posted, Kevin.

                        --Jimmy

                        log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #142

                         

                           My training log here is not quite up to date as I have a new polar heart rate monitor and I haven't figured out where on my hard drive the hrm files are kept so I can't upload them. My average usually works out to 130-131. If I set my monitor alarm to 133 it beeps constantly over the last part of my runs as I was trying for an average of 133 and I have to go a little over that to move the average up after the warm-up. This thinking might be wrong. However I should be able to go up a couple of beats as I have been athletically active all my life. The second reason I set it plus 4 beats is that at 136 I can feel myself starting to work, below that is easy. It is almost a very clear line. The third reason I set it there is that after I got my new Polar heart rate monitor I tested what my own zone was and the range it gave me was 122 to 150, which has 136 right in the middle. ( own zone is base on heart rate variability. ) The big one though is the way that 136 feels.

                          I have been surprised at how fast my body has adapted. I went from 30 minutes 4 days running quickly to 70 minutes at Maf pace in about 5 weeks. I really did not think I could run this long.

                          regards

                          Kevin

                           

                           

                          I was asking run48 that question, I did not know that you added 4 beats to your own MAF HR. nice coincidence Smile

                           

                          interesting how for you it's 180-age+4 where you feel yourself starting to work. for me, it is 180-age+22 (yes I don't believe in the formula being perfect) :P

                            Hey Kevin,

                             

                            Welcome.

                            Nice pace at MAF. What was your pace at MAF when you started?

                             

                            If you have been progressing, you could just keep doing what you are doing until fall. Summer is a stressful time to run (I'm assuming it's summer where you are), and if you have been progressing,  a bump up in volume (especially too much too soon over what level you are at now) could make you plateau/regress. Fall would be a better time to start increasing. Ultimately, it depends what your goals are.

                             

                            I think you stop being so cheap and buy the LHRT "elders" a coffee, sit down with us, and tell us some soccer stories (love ones about the rare times games didn't end in a tie and didn't have to resort to free kicks at the goalie). Give of yourself. Cool

                             

                            Keep us posted, Kevin.

                            --Jimmy

                            Hello Jimmy,

                             I have only been running at MAF heart rate since about the middle of July. I was running about 45 minutes at an 8:15 per mile pace. I am now doing 70 minutes at about a 7:56 pace. Todays run was 80 minutes at at the 7:56 pace and an average heart rate of 131. It is the second time in two weeks I have run 80 minutes. It was a lot cooler today so it was much easier. My body is responding very well to the increased volume at the MAF pace.

                            Not sure what my goals are. Which is a little unusual for me, I normally have a competitive goal, not necessarily running but fitness based. Last year I wanted to get better at badminton and I needed conditioning for that. Right now I am just happy running, the possibility of a 10 in the fall is getting interesting though. Right now I think I will keep most of my runs at 70 minutes for a couple of weeks with a longer run on Sunday thrown in.

                            I am 47 now and did not start playing soccer until I was 42. I play in an over 45 league. Most of the players are good soccer players, they have played all their lives but most have let themselves go.  I heard second hand what the other players on my team think of me. " Kevin really isn't much of a soccer player but he runs so much and puts so much pressure on the other team he drives them nuts" For me chasing after the ball is just an excuse to run really fast without looking like I am an idiot running alone in a field.

                            kevin