Low HR Training

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Hydration a la Maffetone... (Read 791 times)


Half Fanatic #846

    Gatorade is my sports drink of choice - before, during, and after a run when needed. And I went thru 12 weeks of LHR training this past winter with noticeable improvement. I have never been a "water person" - maybe a few sips when it's really hot...but rarely. Reading Maffetone recently, I'm now under the impression that only water should be consumed before and during LHR training - to teach the body to use stored fats as energy. Is this right? Confused (I have been drinking water only during training recently). Also, what's the energy drink protocol (if any) for racing during anaerobic phases? Thanks - Bill

    "I don't always roll a joint, but when I do, it's usually my ankle" - unk.               "Frankly autocorrect, 'm getting a bit tired of your shirt"             Run like the winded                I ran half my last race on my left foot!                 70-74 year old age group                  

      I don't get this one either. Am I not burning the same fat/carb ratio at a given HR whether or not I eat or drink carbs prior to or during the run? I do what makes me feel better on this one. I think my atiitude and, most importantly to me, my recovery is enhanced by consuming carbs before (just a little) and during the run. Most of my runs are within 15-20 minutes of waking up in the morning at 4:30-5:00 AM. If this hinders fat burning, then so be it. If it's good enough for Lance Armstrong, it's good enough for me. Big grin
        Basically, if you eat sugar, carbs, high fructose corn syrup (found in Gatorade), etc--alll carbs--too close to a run, the blood glucose levels are too high and your body will use mostly sugar as fuel, no matter the HR. It will retard the fat-burning fiber development you are trying to accomplish with the MAF training, or seriously affect your fat-burning in an endurance race. If you wait until 30 minutes or so into the run, it won't affect your fat-burning. Here's an article that explains it: http://www.marathonguide.com/training/articles/MandBFuelOnFat.cfm One of the posters on this forum, Dave, has seen the same phenomenon with people he's RQ tested. When someone eats carbs right before a run, it really affects how much fat they are using for fuel. So, if your goal is to build endurance by developing fat-burning fibers, then apparently it is best to not eat carbs right before a run or a race, and wait until 30 minutes into it to take carbs. Take it or leave it. Experiment. Some people eat a little protein and fat before a run. I just do water during training runs. I never bonk, nor do I get hungry. If I'm hungry before the run, it goes away once I am into the run. Even though I could eat a bit closer to a run, I use a no-eat within 3-4 hours as a personal rule. Besides the fat-burning issue, I like my stomach to be nearly empty. Regurgitation during a run (chewing the cud-muffin) isn't my favorite thing. --Jimmy
          I don't get this one either. Am I not burning the same fat/carb ratio at a given HR whether or not I eat or drink carbs prior to or during the run? I do what makes me feel better on this one. I think my atiitude and, most importantly to me, my recovery is enhanced by consuming carbs before (just a little) and during the run. Most of my runs are within 15-20 minutes of waking up in the morning at 4:30-5:00 AM. If this hinders fat burning, then so be it. If it's good enough for Lance Armstrong, it's good enough for me. Big grin
          I will check on this over the weekend and post again if I have better info. I believe consuming sugary drinks such as gatorade causes a spike in your body's insulin levels, which in turn inhibits fat burning. Your body cannot learn to burn fat as quickly if you are not asking it to burn as much during training. In time, you should be able to run the same speed at a lower heart rate if you do not consume the sugary drinks, which is the goal of this type of training (aerobic speed). Think about reasons why you are not supposed to eat for 3 hours before a VO2max test. I drank one small cup of gatorade total in training before my Spring marathon (to make sure it did not cause problems). During the marathon, I drank gatorade after an hour. It did make a BIG difference in how I felt--I felt supercharged, full of energy & mentally positive. I'm sure it was not all due to the gatorade (race day and the taper likely helped), but I think it contributed.


          Half Fanatic #846

            Thanks for the responses everyone, and the link to the Marathon Guide article. I wasn't really questioning the methodology as much as just wanting to understand "why I'm doing what I'm doing" more thoroughly, and this all helps greatly! Cool BTW, I recently started a 15 week aerobic-only LHR phase and will post the MAF test results at the end. I swore off summer races due to heat & humidity, even though I train in it - forget a PR for me in the summer here in Fla.! But it works out for the best because it gives me all summer to do strictly LHR training. I'll use races in the fall and winter for the anaerobic stuff... Bill

            "I don't always roll a joint, but when I do, it's usually my ankle" - unk.               "Frankly autocorrect, 'm getting a bit tired of your shirt"             Run like the winded                I ran half my last race on my left foot!                 70-74 year old age group                  

              Basically, if you eat sugar, carbs, high fructose corn syrup (found in Gatorade), etc--alll carbs--too close to a run, the blood glucose levels are too high and your body will use mostly sugar as fuel, no matter the HR. It will retard the fat-burning fiber development you are trying to accomplish with the MAF training, or seriously affect your fat-burning in an endurance race. If you wait until 30 minutes or so into the run, it won't affect your fat-burning. Here's an article that explains it: http://www.marathonguide.com/training/articles/MandBFuelOnFat.cfm One of the posters on this forum, Dave, has seen the same phenomenon with people he's RQ tested. When someone eats carbs right before a run, it really affects how much fat they are using for fuel. So, if your goal is to build endurance by developing fat-burning fibers, then apparently it is best to not eat carbs right before a run or a race, and wait until 30 minutes into it to take carbs. Take it or leave it. Experiment. Some people eat a little protein and fat before a run. I just do water during training runs. I never bonk, nor do I get hungry. If I'm hungry before the run, it goes away once I am into the run. Even though I could eat a bit closer to a run, I use a no-eat within 3-4 hours as a personal rule. Besides the fat-burning issue, I like my stomach to be nearly empty. Regurgitation during a run (chewing the cud-muffin) isn't my favorite thing. --Jimmy
              Thanks for the article. There is still some conflicting information, in my mind. A quote from the article: "If you tend toward hypoglycemia when you get up in the morning, you may want to eat something in the minutes immediately before you head out the door. It takes 30 minutes for insulin levels to peak." This is exactly what I've been doing the last several weeks. I'll drink some water & 8 oz of juice along with a piece of bread with honey or a banana right before heading out the door. For runs lasting less than 1 hour, I bring water along....longer than an hour, Gatorade. According to the author, this is acceptable. Anyway, if I could find a middle ground, that both improves fat burning AND the enjoyment of my early morning runs, I would give it a shot. For now, I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. If I fail to see improvements over a long period of time, I'll have to re-evaluate.
                I don't get this one either. Am I not burning the same fat/carb ratio at a given HR whether or not I eat or drink carbs prior to or during the run? I do what makes me feel better on this one. I think my atiitude and, most importantly to me, my recovery is enhanced by consuming carbs before (just a little) and during the run. Most of my runs are within 15-20 minutes of waking up in the morning at 4:30-5:00 AM. If this hinders fat burning, then so be it. If it's good enough for Lance Armstrong, it's good enough for me. Big grin
                I would have a hard time giving up a cup of coffee first thing in the morning before runs if that were "against the rules", so I understand your point about attitude.
                  Thanks for the article. There is still some conflicting information, in my mind. A quote from the article: "If you tend toward hypoglycemia when you get up in the morning, you may want to eat something in the minutes immediately before you head out the door. It takes 30 minutes for insulin levels to peak." This is exactly what I've been doing the last several weeks. I'll drink some water & 8 oz of juice along with a piece of bread with honey or a banana right before heading out the door. For runs lasting less than 1 hour, I bring water along....longer than an hour, Gatorade. According to the author, this is acceptable. Anyway, if I could find a middle ground, that both improves fat burning AND the enjoyment of my early morning runs, I would give it a shot. For now, I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. If I fail to see improvements over a long period of time, I'll have to re-evaluate.
                  I would imagine that people with blood sugar problems like diabetes and hypoglycemia have different considerations and priorities. It would be an interesting experiment to do a weekly MAF test. Every other test, eat carbs right before the run. Every other test, don't eat closer than 2-3 others. See if there is a difference. --Jimmy
                    I would have a hard time giving up a cup of coffee first thing in the morning before runs if that were "against the rules", so I understand your point about attitude.
                    I like my coffee too, but I don't drink it before I run. I was surprised to read, in the article that Jimmy referenced, that coffee before a run can enhance fat burning. I would think that it would elevate your HR.
                      I would imagine that people with blood sugar problems like diabetes and hypoglycemia have different considerations and priorities. It would be an interesting experiment to do a weekly MAF test. Every other test, eat carbs right before the run. Every other test, don't eat closer than 2-3 others. See if there is a difference. --Jimmy
                      Maybe I'll try that when we get some cooler, drier weather. Thanks.
                        I like my coffee too, but I don't drink it before I run. I was surprised to read, in the article that Jimmy referenced, that coffee before a run can enhance fat burning. I would think that it would elevate your HR.
                        I run with a coffee I.V. Funny, when I drink coffee, I never get headaches. It's a miracle. When I don't... There's been a lot of info out about caffeine and performance. You actually need a lot to enhance performance, more than what a cup is going to give you. Once you're in the addict stage, it doesn't affect HR and blood pressure as it would someone who rarely drinks and has a cup (coffee is never better than when you cut way down for awhile, then you go back to it--zippity do-da). --Jimmy P.S. I'm drinking an excellent black, organic coffee right now.
                          I like my coffee too, but I don't drink it before I run. I was surprised to read, in the article that Jimmy referenced, that coffee before a run can enhance fat burning. I would think that it would elevate your HR.
                          I'm not sure exactly why coffee enhances fat burning. Since I am a coffee addict, drinking coffee in the morning does not affect my heart rate much. In fast, my heart rate seemed to be higher the few times I tried to run before coffee. I think my body is all out of sorts pre-coffee and cannot function.
                            Here's an article by USA cycling coach Renee Eastman about eating before early morning training runs. http://www.ebragger.com/710/why-you-should-eat-early-morning-training-ride! I've been researching this a little bit. I have found other sources that say not to eat within three hours. I have not, however, found anything that covers running after an overnight fast. I'm not saying it's wrong to do so, I'm just trying to figure out what is best for me.
                              The prevailing theory out there is the following: http://www.clutchfitness.com/forums/view.php?pg=myth-fat-burning-zone I'm just not sure the relevance to MAF base training, which is about developing the ABILITY to use fat to process oxygen (faster and faster with aerobic fibers). There is a mentionin the article that at low intensities, cabs will inhibit fat-burning, and no effect at higher intesities. Perhaps that is where warming up comes into play. I put in an email to Dr. Maffetone for his view. Hopefully he'll get back to me. I couldn't find a specific refernece in his books for this topic. --Jimmy
                              GMoney


                                FWIW - my pre long run or race meal is usually either nothing or, if i'm feeling really hungry, a small serving of 100% protein/fat - cold meatballs, left over grilled meat or some cold shrimp - and black coffee. i find this keeps me on an even keel early on and makes the run more enjoyable for me. if i eat carbs before i start i feel bloated and slow. i don't normally hit the carbohydrate replenishment beverages until 10 miles in. before that it's just straight up H2O. after 10 miles i alternate water and a carbo bev. i ran a 50-K this spring with pomegranate juice as my prime carbo drink (i left some bottles of it in my drop bags). worked like a charm. i did a couple of shots of coca-cola at 23 miles, and it was like jet fuel, but i had to hit it again at the last aid station mile 28.5 because i felt like i was going to crash.
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