Low HR Training

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Running, Rowing and Biking with MAF (NEWBIE) (Read 985 times)

    My first post! Wow, there is a lot of information on this forum and this User Group.

     

    I am a 48 year old guy trying to stay in shape and not happy though with the fact I weigh 172 lb., with a Body Fat % of between 22 to 24%. Before reading this forum and discovering LHR training and Dr. Maffetone I have been working out with a C2 Rowing ergometer, bicycle and of course, running. My 220 - 48 MHR is 172 and easily I used to work out both in rowing and indoor rowing at 155 to 165 which according to above is 90 to 95% anaerobically! No wonder I have not been able to trim off such a high body fat count, looks like I been using sugar burning reserves.

     

    The weird thing is that I am 5' 9.5" and have a 34" waist, but have a high body fat count.

     

    I tried tonight to run at my MAF rate [180 - 48 = 132] for the first time. Boy, I am running really slow. Sometimes I had to actually slow to a fast walk. IS THIS NORMAL? Before I could run 30 to 40 minutes at a higher speed at 155 to 160, but apparently running very anaerobically.

     

    Are there any other upper 40 year old's out there on this forum I can relate too?

     

    Thanks

    Paul

      Plenty of 40+, 50+, 60+, 70+ here, Paul.

      Welcome.

       

       

      The slowing is the usual for most who come to this. The walking is telling you

      that you definitely need this kind of work for awhile. When I started it slowed me down big time, but

      within 24 weeks or so, I was training at speeds I used to, but sub MAF.  There are many similar

      stories, including Mark Allen's.

       

       

      There's a big learning curve with this type for aerobic training. Make sure to read up on

      how high mental stress affects the body and can lead to over-training in combination with

      normal training. The chapters and essays Dr. Phil writes on the subject are right on the money.

      Essentially, this training is about managing your stress load, in order to develop a big aerobic

      engine. A healthy body, as well as fit.

       

      I've been using this training since 2005, and it brought me to some nice PR's.

      and the disappearance of the wall in any length of race.

      Along the way, in 2008, life stress increased dramatically, and it brought on a case of

      over-training amidst my usual training load. And I've been working my way back. I had to walk at times again.

      I'm running everything now again. So, at 49, I'm in the same neighborhood as

      you. Aerobic runs averaging 12:30-15:00 per miles. Currenty, I'm in an anaerobic prep

      for a race season coming up. I'll follow that brief season with another aerobic phase to

      prepare for fall. That's how it goes: aerobic base phase, add some tempos or fartlek after

      12-16 weeks, race, go back to base. All dictated by how your MAF tests are doing.

       

      MAF tests are the bedrock of this training. throughout all phases.

       

      Have fun, Paul. Lots to read here and at Dr. Phil's website. His books are

      very helpful.

       

      --Jimmy

       

      log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #141

       

        Essentially, this training is about managing your stress load - this is the best thing about MAF. just don't forget about mental stress. it is stress on its own just as much as physical stress from the training.

         

        so only try this program if you don't fret too much about your slow pace. also, remember, it may take months before it will be even slightly faster. be honest to yourself when trying to see if that's OK for you.

         

        don't try to cajole yourself into the hope that maybe it will not take that long. it *will* take months for sure if you never had a good running base in the past. if you did, then it may take less.

         

        PS: the 220-age calculated MHR is useless. if you want to know MHR, then test it out.

          cmon2; I agree about the need to lessen stress, that is why I work out to begin with to help relieve it. I am a business owner and need to release tension built up sometimes that happens during the day.

           

          I am a generally patient person when it comes to progress.

           

          Jimmy,

           

          Thank for the quick response and encouraging words. I will read up on LHR and have been reading some articles written by Dr. Phil at his website. Very interesting.

           

          I will conduct a MAF test soon to see how things will start out.

          gregw


            I sense that you're probably going to have that seed of doubt that your MAF is really higher than 180 - age.  The low heart rate FAQ covers that


            22. Is there any way to use this approach with a more personalized formula for me?


            Yes, but it may be costly and burdensome and you may not get a better bottom line training zone. You can have a vo2max test done, find the heart rate where your RQ (or RER) value is 0.78, which corresponds to 25% carb burn/75% fat burn and use that as your max training zone. Or you can use 80% of your anaerobic threshold heart rate. These should be close to the MAF values.


            It's not mentioned there, but a decent way of estimating you AT heart rate is to run a race of about an hour (10k - 10M depending on pace).  If you can 10 miles at 190, then MAF - age probably isn't right for you.  The forumula happens to be pretty close for me if I do .8 * AT heart rate.

              actually, I doubt the MAF can be much higher than 180-age for a beginner with slow pace at any distance/HR. an example here: if you can do an all-out 10K in 1 hour, your MAF will be much lower than if you can do an all-out 10K in 40mins. this is because in the latter case you can rely a lot more on aerobic base/fat burning which means MAF is higher. simply take the opposite of this for the beginner case: can only do 10K in 1 hour because he/she can't use energy systems efficiently, less fat burning, so MAF will be lower.

               

              and yes it may be a good approach if you try to use AT to define your MAF. the more fat you can burn the better you can stand higher HR because the less lactate will build up. so your AT will move higher. and the other way around for the beginner, of course!

              though, in my case this might not have worked because when I was an unfit beginner with only a few weeks of running, I somehow already learnt to tolerate the lactate pretty well and I could already run at very high heart rates for a long time even though I didn't cover a long distance (i.e. slow pace, low fitness). I'm not sure as to why that would be.

              I used the word "might" because I'm not sure if my AT moved even higher after getting better fitness while of course the MAF must have moved a bit up. maybe AT also did move, maybe not, I have not tested this in a long time. so I don't have exact measurements to prove that my AT as a beginner was unusually high relative to my slow running pace.

               

              one more thing to note about using AT for defining MAF: you mention that you need to check the AT in a race. for me AT does definitely move higher in a race (and not due to increased fitness, simply due to adrenaline). this I tested/proved already. this is probably dependent on the person. for those whose AT moves during a race more than for the average person, I'm not sure if that's a good way to calculate the training MAF from.

              gregw


                Race HR (or LT HR) is just a good way of normalizing.  Of course not everyone would have the same RQ versus %LT HR profile, but I think it would probably do a lot to adjust the biases.  We've seen a fair number of people with very low heart rates where it's clear that they MAF isn't 140 when their 10k HR is 150.  We've also seen it in the opposite direction on the age 60+ end.  I think I've said this before, but marathon HR is probably even a better "normalizer" because you have to run in the fat burning zone, but many people haven't run a marathon with a HRM.


                Beginner all over again

                  How does that work, race pace as normalizing?

                   

                  For instance, I ran (jog/walk) my first 5 miles of my HM really conservatively

                  and the

                  6th mile fastest pace

                  and

                  last 7 miles steady at 11:20 paceAvg (Jog/Walk) which was about a full minute faster than the first 5 miles

                   

                  So I was thinking, I can run a 10K at 11:20 because I did in the last half of my HM

                   

                  How does that normalize or affect an adjusted MAF Training HR ? ?

                   

                  I still can't jog at MAF though, doing Walk/Jog at 17:40 on a treadmill, so I think it's really more walking than it seems because the belt moves me along if I stand on the foot long enough

                   

                  HR at "MAF to Maf+10" was 15:40 paceAvg at a weekend 5K I just did as a MEP Time Trial MAF+10

                  HR at MAF itself  is  17:40 paceAvg, a full two minutes slow paceAvg than at MAF+10

                   

                  I thought it was interesting

                  That's a pretty big difference, wondering whether it had anything to do with what you are talking about. ? ?

                   

                   

                  gregw


                    Ack.  Now I'm in it.  I'm not talking about normalizing pace, I'm talking about normalizing HR.  What I mean by "normalization" is using normalized units for HR.  Instead of plotting RQ versus bpm to find a deflection point (and identify MAF), you would plot RQ versus percent of some reference HR like (1-hour race HR or 3-hour race HR).  My guess is that you would have a tighter distribution of measured deflection points around % 1-hour race HR than you would around 180-age (at least for older and younger runners).  That's a total guess though!


                    Now I have no clue where Jesse got 0.8 * LT HR.  I've asked before and never received an answer.  It does seem to work for me, however.


                    Beginner all over again

                      Ack.  Now I'm in it.  I'm not talking about normalizing pace, I'm talking about normalizing HR. .

                       

                      Nah, I just can't follow the discussion.

                       

                      I'll just keep up with all<MAF except for a few  MEP Time Trials (MAF+10) per month,

                      and see where it takes me.

                       

                        OK, just did my second MAF run with a cool Blackberry App called RoadRunnerGPS and here are my results:

                         

                        distance 3.01 miles

                        time 46:07

                        speed 3.9 mph

                        pace 15:18 min/mile

                         

                        Running at this pace is so slow, but I realize it will establish an aerobic conditioning pace for my body.

                         

                        Paul

                          OK, just did my second MAF run with a cool Blackberry App called RoadRunnerGPS and here are my results:

                           

                          distance 3.01 miles

                          time 46:07

                          speed 3.9 mph

                          pace 15:18 min/mile

                           

                          Running at this pace is so slow, but I realize it will establish an aerobic conditioning pace for my body.

                           

                          Paul

                           

                          You have a nice benchmark now. Stick to it, build your volume slowly, and that wil

                          start to improve. I was there 6 months ago . I've improved greatly. Reducing bodyfat

                          really helps.

                           

                          Keep us posted, Paul. And keep going!

                          --Jimmy

                          log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #141

                           


                          Beginner all over again

                            OK, just did my second MAF run with a cool Blackberry App called RoadRunnerGPS and here are my results:

                             

                             

                            distance 3.01 miles

                             

                            time 46:07

                            speed 3.9 mph

                            pace 15:18 min/mile

                             

                            Running at this pace is so slow, but I realize it will establish an aerobic conditioning pace for my body.

                             

                            Paul

                             

                             

                            Very good run!

                             

                            There is another app called   MotionX for iphone

                            :-)

                             

                               

                              I was there 6 months ago . I've improved greatly.

                               

                               

                              hmm, one thing I find weird about MAF training people: the ones who've had success with it keep saying they improved a lot. this combined with the initial slow pace can make people want that improvement too much and then that can make them frustrated.

                              or maybe I'm wrong but it just seems like that to me because if I read the old threads I keep seeing people here who are whining about not improving / not improving fast enough.

                              I dunno if that's common in other forums about other training methods as I don't visit many. so that's just my subjective observation. Smile

                               

                              so again, to the thread starter / other MAF newbies, be patient, you need to like the slow pace to be able to continue for a long time. Smile or if not, then you can still love the feeling that you are running totally effortless. it can feel like you were meant to run in this natural and easy way.

                              (as for myself, I love any pace inside 12:30m/m, I tolerate paces between 12:30-14:30m/m, my legs give up beyond 14:30.)

                                So I was thinking, I can run a 10K at 11:20 because I did in the last half of my HM

                                 

                                How does that normalize or affect an adjusted MAF Training HR ? ?

                                 

                                I still can't jog at MAF though, doing Walk/Jog at 17:40 on a treadmill, so I think it's really more walking than it seems because the belt moves me along if I stand on the foot long enough

                                 

                                HR at "MAF to Maf+10" was 15:40 paceAvg at a weekend 5K I just did as a MEP Time Trial MAF+10

                                HR at MAF itself  is  17:40 paceAvg, a full two minutes slow paceAvg than at MAF+10

                                 

                                I thought it was interesting

                                That's a pretty big difference, wondering whether it had anything to do with what you are talking about. ? ?

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                looks like if an all-out 10K is 11:20 for you then 17:40 is realistic MAF pace, but just guessing by looking, I didn't try to calculate anything, if someone else wants/knows how to, that'll be better.

                                 

                                my guess comes from the fact that my all-out 10K would be around 9m/m (this has not changed for a long time apart from some periods, so I had about this 10K pace before starting MAF too) and my starting MAF pace was around 15m/m.

                                 

                                if you feel the MEP runs aren't overloading you, then MEP running may be a good idea so your legs don't totally forget how to run. you should also try running downhill at MAF. it could be a lot of fun! I do a lot of that myself and my pace goes into the 10's when running downhill even though it's 12-13 on flat surface. Smile

                                 

                                as for the difference between 15:40 and 17:40: 1) if you have a low MHR then 10bpm will make a big difference in pace 2) the pace differences calculated by subtracting are not linear. so the difference between 15:40 and 17:40  is the same as between 9:04 and 10:09 if we look at the percentage difference. I hope this wording sounds clear enough

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