Low HR Training

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calves vs MAF pace (Read 1138 times)

    now just wondering about one thing... I switched to doing MAF, then I noticed that when doing uphill runs (run-walk really) my calves would complain a LOT. hard to describe it but an acute very painful feeling mainly in the lower part of the calves, in the back of my legs, I believe just above the achilles tendon (I don't think it's achilles problem, well, I hope.)

     

    ...usually after a few mins they would always ease into it. and even before that, on some days I would have it on flat ground too for a few mins. lately what changed is that I consistently get it from the 2nd-3rd minute into a run even when flat ground and then the pain diminishes and then disappears after 10 mins and I can go on no problem. until then sometimes I have to walk for a few steps to make it better temporarily but only when it feels really really painful. yesterday it seemed very good on flat ground so I thought it fixed itself (except it complained for a bit when I went uphill), then today (well, yesterday now really..) I started training with downhill running, that was cool but then I switched to uphill and after a couple of mins it was horrible!! it went away then I did a lot more of uphill running (run-walk) then downhill running and at the end of the downhill I went uphill again and it complained a bit again at the start of the new uphill (but it went away very quickly as it wasn't the start of the whole workout).

     

    oh and once I noticed that when I let my pace drop so much that it went to 146bpm or so, the pain came back, I "sped" up to 151 and it went away. so I think it's to do with the slow pace somehow. you know, uphill is even slower than flat ground, too. if I try running uphill in a continuous way which is very slow (vs. a bit faster run+walk), that will also be taxing it as long as it is the start of the workout.

    so, naturally, if I have the pain then downhill running usually always fixes it. but sometimes I can have it on flat ground for the first 10 mins of the workout.

     

    sum-up: slow pace on flat ground or uphill will cause it at the start then it goes away, it is almost like it needs a warmup but why it has to be so painful, I don't know.

     

    what could this be? anyone else ever experience this? how to fix it?

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      log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #143

       

        thanks for the reply! Smile

         

        I never stretch before a workout. to be very honest; I hate stretching. I stretch after a workout only if my legs feel tight because when they feel tight that bothers me and stretching makes that problem go away. if they're not tight, then I don't stretch them.

         

        I did not increase my training load, I actually went back in mileage and intensity (starting MAF..) before this problem showed up.

         

        the problem started on flat ground first (before even restarting running on hills after the winter), so the cause cannot be the hills.

         

        all I know is it started when I started doing the slow pace i.e. MAF training. and it seems it is strongly related to pace. the slower the pace is the more likely I will get this in the first few mins of doing the slow pace then it warms up and the pain goes away. before or after workout I do not have any symptoms.

         

        you made me a little worried - why does it look like a developing injury? Surprised I really only have it in the first mins of slow pace.. and this is after the warmup walk, so that kind of warmup doesn't help.


        Race Less Train More


           

          I did not increase my training load, I actually went back in mileage and intensity (starting MAF..) before this problem showed up.

           

          the problem started on flat ground first (before even restarting running on hills after the winter), so the cause cannot be the hills.

           

          all I know is it started when I started doing the slow pace i.e. MAF training. and it seems it is strongly related to pace. the slower the pace is the more likely I will get this in the first few mins of doing the slow pace then it warms up and the pain goes away. before or after workout I do not have any symptoms.

           

          you made me a little worried - why does it look like a developing injury? Surprised I really only have it in the first mins of slow pace.. and this is after the warmup walk, so that kind of warmup doesn't help.

           Looking at your log it appears you do not get enough rest. You have hills on back to back days. 5 of 8 days were hills. After a day of hills you may want to run your flat-ish -loop. Pain is usually an indicator of a problem or injure in the making. Most of us dislike stretching but sometimes it is necessary. When I get of this computer I am going to stretch my back. Thanks

          Run until the trail runs out.

          2013***1500 miles

          50 miler

           

           

          unsolicited chatter

          http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

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            log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #143

             

              thanks again. Smile

               

              however, sorry to say that I feel (perhaps I'm wrong though) that you did not read my post / look at my log carefully enough. note the following:

               

              - I mention it several times that I get the problem on flat ground just as much as on uphills. can be just as horrible.

               

              - I only have 2 hill runs a week, I don't think that's too much. the 2 extra (the short ones) you saw were not true hill runs, you can see that if you read the log comments Wink but next week I won't even have those non-true ones.

               

              - the pain came up first time BEFORE even starting to do hills, and I mentioned this.

               

              overall, it is not really related to uphill, it is more related to slow pace.

               

              - I don't know what kind of rest I should do as I get the pain in the first 10 mins of a workout and then it goes away, so rest obviously will not help with that. and regardless of doing rest or not, I feel the same every day. I don't feel that my body needs the weekly rest day, I'm just being cautious with that.

               

              - to be even more cautious, I did do a cutback week for the 4th week, I hope that can be seen if you look at my log (it was 5 workouts with my long run skipped; but I entered a short walk-ish one as a run where my HR was around 124, MAF-30, so it is 6 total).

              I feel like noting here that I'll try to cut back from this last week too, because it was 8 hours total for the week and that just scares me somehow. Smile

               

              btw, you are totally right about having to get used to the MAF workouts; that took me about 3 weeks for my legs to adapt. - except for this calf thing. but they can now run long hours/distances, unlike the 1st and 2nd weeks when I couldn't really do that.

               

              I have a theory now and it is that if I keep myself upright enough that seems to help on flat ground. testing the theory; today's workout was just fine in terms of calves when trying this idea. so far it may be coincidence as it was almost fine a couple days ago too. (that was the day after my long run, too.)

              I will report here if this actually fixes it.

               

              as for stretching, lol, out of 2 people here, one says don't stretch, one says should stretch. Big grin

              I guess stretching would deserve its own thread but let me mention here my opinion about it: I stretch if my legs tell me they need it. I don't stretch if they don't tell me that. basically, if they are feeling tight after a workout then they need it. I don't know what this depends on (them getting tight or not).

               

              all in all, can I assume that nobody else got this issue after starting MAF stuff? interesting. guess each person is quite unique. Wink

                Hi Cmon,

                if you start your post with something like "

                . ..I switched to doing MAF, then I noticed that when doing uphill runs (run-walk really) my calves would complain a LOT.
                I too would read that as you saying that uphill running had started causing you the pain.

                Yes you mention flat running later, but if you didnt think the hills were a factor, why start off saying that the pain started with them?

                  Hi Cmon,

                  if you start your post with something like "I too would read that as you saying that uphill running had started causing you the pain.

                  Yes you mention flat running later, but if you didnt think the hills were a factor, why start off saying that the pain started with them?

                   

                  yes sorry, you are right, I wasn't emphasizing the flat running enough. anyway, I'll report back about my experiment with posture during running. Smile

                    theory working so far (2nd workout ok too). I should now try to falsify it? Wink I don't really want to...heh.

                      hmm ok the real fix seems to be this: the protection in my shoes gave in gradually. I realized it only when I got sore legs even from 30 mins of slow easy running.

                       

                      with the new shoes, no calf problems. paying attention to posture only helped 90% but new shoes totally fixed it, so far.

                       

                      embarrassing reason! haha!

                       

                      oh, and the stupid shoes only had 700km/440miles in them before totally getting bad Sad even though I was told in the shop that they should've lasted 1000km for my weight (110-115lbs)

                        Which shoes did you have? Also how long did you have them?

                         


                         

                        oh, and the stupid shoes only had 700km/440miles in them before totally getting bad Sad even though I was told in the shop that they should've lasted 1000km for my weight (110-115lbs)

                          Which shoes did you have? Also how long did you have them?

                           

                           

                           

                          saucony grid phoenix 3. bought them end of october, last year. I bought an adidas model (response ctl) later but had to give up on that as it wasn't good for my legs. the saucony shoes were perfect until the protection in it started giving in... in any case I bought the new model (progrid phoenix 4) last friday, it's mostly ok so far, but less flexible than the 3 model. I wanted the 3 but they did not have it in my size and I had to buy some shoes right there and then, you see, runner's obsession about not skipping a weekend's of running (it was friday, late afternoon)  Smile

                            I have to admit - I was wrong. it wasn't the shoes. I did need new shoes as the protection in the old ones started really wearing out causing a lot of soreness but this calf pain is not related.

                             

                            OK it was gone for the first 3 workouts in the new shoes but then it came back now

                             

                            now I have a new idea - but let me explain some things first: I analyzed my courses/routes and I realize that when I call a route flat it is usually a 1% incline in reality. this is not noticeable at all, only if actually measuring it (and of course my pace slightly differs depending which direction I run in). sigh looks like to get true flat ground I'd have to travel a lot away from the hills where I live.

                             

                            well, provided it's the very start of the workout (start of the actual workout and/or the warm-up before it) and not later, I may still get the calf pain even when running "downhill" on these 1% inclines but not always. but it is clearly worse/more likely when running "uphill" at the start. note the quotes because it is really "flat" ground by just looking at it. anyway, the point here is, pain may not come up at all if I start the workout with "downhill" 1%.

                             

                            if I'm well into the workout, then it will not come up when running "uphill" on these 1% "flat" routes but more steep/true uphills can sometimes (most of the time not) cause it again (but if yes, then for a short while only because I'm already well into the whole running and that somehow helps).

                             

                            and if I already have it then running downhill instantly cures it...

                             

                            ok, the whole point of the above babbling is this: this difference in the "flat" grounds may explain why sometimes I do not experience the pain at all...plus sometimes I happen to go out a little bit faster which might make all the difference too. and this is why I thought it was the shoes, heh!

                             

                            anyway, now my new theory is that it is my running style that is different when I'm going very slow. uphill I do go a lot slower, obviously. I go somewhat slower on 1% "uphills". and I think when I'm going slower I might be putting my feet differently. maybe more eccentric loading happens with this style. on uphills that would definitely happen. today, after realizing that, I tried to do moves of the opposite movement (concentric I think) and the pain went away asap. Smile

                            by the way, the pain seems to be in the calves but in the lower part so maybe that's where the achilles tendon joins the calf, I'm not sure. it is just above where the tendon would normally be felt.

                             

                            I will definitely experiment with this!

                             

                            note, I would probably never get it uphill if running fast (I did that in the past on hills, and I cannot recall a problem with the calves). so that is strange. and running fast on flat (even if 1% incline) ground is always okay too :P

                             

                            this is why I related it to the MAF pace/training. but now it looks more like that it isn't some problem with the slow twitchers thank god Wink I assume if I get faster at MAF HR it will be cured forever. until then I'll try the movements I talked about above. tonight I also restarted doing repeats of eccentric loading exercises at home to strengthen my legs. maybe that'll also help.

                             

                             

                            PS: jimmyb, why are your posts deleted? Surprised


                            Race Less Train More

                              -

                              Run until the trail runs out.

                              2013***1500 miles

                              50 miler

                               

                               

                              unsolicited chatter

                              http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

                                why did you post here? Smile and why no words? Smile

                                 

                                anyway, I was right, on flatter surfaces it did help when MAF pace got faster :P

                                 

                                and on steep uphills I just do the heel raises sometimes and okay that way.

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