Low HR Training

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Out of the Frying pan...... a running newbie's questions. (Read 535 times)

    Hi everyone. I have to say how inspiring it is to read about all your running efforts. I'm 44 5'7'' and 167lbs. I have just completed a 1000 mile British cycling challenge from one end of the country to the other (known in the UK as Land's End to John O'Groats). I used the Maffetone 180 - age formula to train by because the all out 40 mile efforts myself and the other guys were doing meant we were getting injured and only just recovering in a week (thanks for the advice Jesse). We needed to be able to get 80 miles a day for 14 days in order to meet the challenge and it just wasn't happening. Anyway I switched to a hr range of 127 - 137 and stuck to it (even up hills) for 3 months and in a very short space of time I could cope with 50 miles, eventually working up to the required 80.......... essentially it worked!!! and we (I convinced the others to switch after my apparent ease at completing training rides) then went on to do the ride quite comfortably (ages 40, 44, 45 and 61!) without being serious cyclists beforehand. anyway, after reading on here and elsewhere I have decided my next challenge is to run Marathons (specifically the London Marathon) I have a long term goal of breaking 3h. so ..... after all that blurb, my questions. where do I start? I may have better aerobic conditioning now because of what I have just done, but that's for non weight bearing activity and my muscles and ligaments are not conditioned for bearing the weight. should I begin at the beginning? http://www.runninginjuryfree.org/beginnersplan.html (and use this time to lose 14lbs?) or what would people recommend? at what Point should I try to do a MAF test? Ok proper shoes are in the Works.... going to the local running shop this weekend to get fitted, and I think I have found a running buddy so pretty sorted there. also we have a good local running track where I can do a nice level MAF test. got a couple of options on HRM's but they are just basic, one is a polar wrist watch type and the other is a Cateye cycle comp.... only the cycle comp has a hr zone and alarm, and I believe that the alarm only operates when the comp is receiving speed data from the bike. anyway I'm looking at getting a Forerunner 301 or 305 depending on budget which will give me my mile splits etc. I know it's the middle of summer (if you are in the northern hemisphere of course) but what do people do when it's dark and miz outside......... treadmill? or brave it? I would be grateful for any wisdom you guys can shine my way. Thanks


    Future running partner.

      You may want to consider a run/walk type of program to get you started. There are a number of them out there. These will probably feel really easy at first. Especially since you already have pretty good cardio fitness. However it takes the joints and ligaments much longer to develop then it does your muscles and aerobics. Also work your way up slowly and carefully to help you feel out your limits.
        I am no expert, but I would recommend going to a library and checking out Mittleman's "Slow Burn" and applying his training for about 3 months, and then you should be good to get after a steady MAF training program. All the same, that link looks pretty good and by the time you lose 14 lbs you will be it good shape and your body should be well adjusted for running. My 2 Cents.
          yes my joints and ligaments are going to be a problem. I went out last evening and did a walk/jog and my shins didn't like it at all, they felt very tight, not sure if that's a result of the cycling or just that they aren't used to being used at all. I'm thinking that beginning on the very basic program first will be the best option. What do you guys do with regard to long term targets, as I have said I would like to run a Marathon in less than 3h (which I humbly acknowledge is a huge ask) so that's my main aim. but should I plan out to run a specific marathon in say 2010 as a training target and then run marathons training / pushing my pb each time to reach my ultimate goal? getting an 'in' to the London Marathon is another challenge in itself, who knows might be able to do it GFA?


          Future running partner.

            I would start with short term intermediate goals and see how it goes. Your sub 3hr mary goal is one in a lot of our books. You may already be fit enough that it won't take you long to break 3hrs or it could take quite a few years. Lance did it on his first try(barely), with out running more than 15 miles on any given run, BUT, his VO2 max is off the charts before he even started running again, but after his illustrious cycling career. I myself started with trying to get faster at shorter races like 8ks and 10ks. I've now been running for about a year and a half and my next goal is just to finish my first marathon in november. Before that I have a more short term goal of getting to 60 mpw.
              Smarts a bit Sad got my running shoes today...... asics gel 1130's the guys in the shop watched me walk and looked at my usual shoes. anyway......... just been out for a micro run........ walked for about 10 minutes then ran to my MAF limit 136 for about 0.5 miles then walked the remaining 10 minutes. Shocked my calves felt ever so tight and towards the end were beginning to get a bit uncomfortable. I'm guessing it's the change in use. so I'm going to stick with that routine daily for a week or so to see if it eases at all. my MAF speed was way lower than I expected! hmmmm maybe cycling 1000 miles and training with a low hr does not translate into higher aerobic capacity after all........ wasn't puffed in the least bit though. will post tomorrows results too. thanks to everyone for their comments thekman: not sure I'll be able to get it from my library as their e-catalogue doesn't list it but there is a copy on ebay for 8.54 GBP is it significantly different from the Maffetone / Hadd stuff?
                Welcome to running. Awesome biking. A suggestion is to not get to your MAF so quickly. In a run that short, you should be down around MAF -10. Warm-up to that number, taking at lest 15 minutes to do so. Then hold that pace once you hit 121-126. Your HR will rise naturally. This will be less stressful. Build mileage or time by 5% per week. Good luck. --Jimmy

                Log & Profile            Crusted Salt #210

                  Smarts a bit Sad my MAF speed was way lower than I expected! hmmmm maybe cycling 1000 miles and training with a low hr does not translate into higher aerobic capacity after all........ wasn't puffed in the least bit though.
                  ipdove- a bulk of muscle fibers you are using for running are different than your biking muscles, so you'll need to develop those (along with running economy, etc). When I first started with LHR training, I could already run a somewhat respectable 5k and 10k pace (7:10-7:30), but I was a 11:00-12:00 pace running at MAF on my treadmill. 15 months later, I ran yesterday on the same treadmill at 8:20-8:35 paces at MAF-5 to MAF-10. It will just take a little time, and will probably not take as long for you given your fitness background.
                    latest observations. ok great input guys really appreciate it. went out this evening, and instead of doing an out and out run I did 50 paces walk / 50 paces trying to keep to maf (well actually trying to keep to maf -10 but no hope there) each time I ran my hr rose as expected and I tried to level it off by slowing my pace and that's when my calves started to bind up. faster pace = calves ok slower pace = calves tighten. so bearing that in mind, I'm going to try a mile I know that is on a gradual incline down to see if that helps, I'm trying here to get my legs just to accept continuous running. if that does work, I know of a more significant hill I could use to maf down and walk up. If I can then maybe I can start getting the volume that will make the difference. just as an aside, is it 'on' topic to discuss Hadd here? cheers to all
                      . just as an aside, is it 'on' topic to discuss Hadd here?
                      I don't think anyone has a problem discussing Hadd. Several people that post here have tried a Hadd-type program. My personal opinion is that beginners should start with below MAF-type running to establish a fat-burning base. Once your body learns and wants to burn fat, I think further basebuilding with the Hadd approach can be helpful for some. I am doing some Hadd-type experimenting this summer- doing a little steady-state work in certain heart rate zones higher than MAF. We'll see what happens when I run a marathon this fall, and if I can remain healthy.
                        my Idea re: following Hadd's suggestions for training was to build the volume of miles per week using the 180 - age Maffetone methodology till I'm running a pretty consistent 40 or so miles a week with a hr that doesn't rise the longer I run. Then increase the MAF HR by 5 and repeat until that levels off and add another 5 etc, obviously this has it's limits and will take quite a long time, but the thought behind it was that the longer you take to build up the first time the better your ultimate aerobic capacity will be (ref Hadd) anyway this is all pipe dream stuff at the moment.... long way to go yet.
                          my Idea re: following Hadd's suggestions for training was to build the volume of miles per week using the 180 - age Maffetone methodology till I'm running a pretty consistent 40 or so miles a week with a hr that doesn't rise the longer I run. Then increase the MAF HR by 5 and repeat until that levels off and add another 5 etc, obviously this has it's limits and will take quite a long time, but the thought behind it was that the longer you take to build up the first time the better your ultimate aerobic capacity will be (ref Hadd) anyway this is all pipe dream stuff at the moment.... long way to go yet.
                          Just keep in mind that you won't necessarily raise all of your miles to MAF+5, MAF+10, etc. Once you establish a good aerobic base, you'll still want most of your miles to be sub-MAF as you continue basebuilding. For example, someone who runs 6 days a week who feels ready to upgrade to Hadd should run 4 days or so sub-MAF, and work a little higher zone the other few days. If you look at Hadd's sample schedules in his basebuilding info, you'll see he keeps a bulk of the runs each week at low intensities.
                            One week on. progress so far: I'm warming up much longer now and stretching more before beginning to wog. I can now wog about 0.5 miles hr 136 till my calves feel so tight I have to walk, I then walk about 0.25 mi and wog again for nearly another 0.5 mi where my calves have tightened up again (L worse than R) and I have cramp in my left foot. doesn't sound much but in comparison to 7 days ago it's already a marathon :-) I think what helped the most was finding a long gradual downhill stretch and wogging repeats. I have an even longer downhill stretch in mind for next week where I'll try to extend the 0.5 without walking maybe. this bit is so hard to cope with, balancing between; increasing volume to help with the adaptations vs getting your body used to the running, injury free! I'm already feeling like I want to stride out more. Sad I dread to think what my minutes / mile are... have to wait for my Garmin 305 to discover that I expect.


                            Future running partner.

                              "WOG", thats awesome! Big grin Before I got my Garmin a few weeks ago, on my recovery day's pace was about 11:00 to 10:30/mile. First day on LHR my pace was 12:30. Scariest thing was on the uphills I'd be wogging up and I'd look down at my pace and see 14:30. Somebody was out for a leisurely stroll on the other side of the street and they actually passed me! Clowning around After about 3 weeks on this my avg HR is actually lower now and my avg pace is back down to 11 to 11:30/mi. What's weird is 10:30 used to feel real slow. Now it feels relatively quick, although not hard.
                                yeah it's almost embarrasing Blush going that slow. I should really time myself so I've got something to compare later on. seems pointless getting the Garmin 305 till next month though, now where did I put that stopwatch??!! Confused the going is getting easier at any rate, calves still stiffen but it's not as bad. noticed that my HR was 10 bpm lower today after warm up than it has been so I'm wondering if I've been a bit tired Sleepy or had a bug Tongue , haven't done a morning rhr reading for a bit, but when I was training for Lejog it sometimes came up at 48 ~ 49. oh well onwards and upwards I'll be able to get on the runinjuryfree intermediate plan some time this century I hope. sorry bout the emoticon overload.
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