Low HR Training

1

Slow down, great.. but what about form? (Read 36 times)

mohdyusuf


    Hi,

    One thing I have yet to understand is that, running slower kinda changes my form. I am now regressed to around 9:00 avg pace MAF test.

    This is not really a pace where I can lean slightly forward and use my glutes a bit more for power, I noticed that I kinda have to stay a tiny bit upright to run this pace. My MAF test is done on a 5 mile loop basically a flat lake perimeter asphalt.

     

    After just 6.5 mile or so, I feel both my knees are quite tired (not pain specifically, but more like sore, hard to explain). At paces around 8:00 and faster, I wont get that knee sore for 8 or even 10 milers. At my MAF pace now, I am basically landing more midfoot towards forefoot with average cadence of 188 spm. I know I am not overstriding, but I couldnt quite figure out the knee sore thing.

     

    The sore feeling (or tiredness or whavever that is) would go away right after I stop running and walk for a minute or two and would feel fine the rest of the day too.

     

    It would be great if someone could explain any tips on how to avoid this knee thingy. This is basically my eventual "ultra" pace that I am looking to be doing. Yes, in ultra, i might not be doing a constant monotonous pounding, but would be great to get this issue resolved.

    Tachypsychia


      As you run slower you have to adjust the stride which pretty substantially changes your form. I learned that as I do MAF running, my heart rate was more easily controlled (and more efficient) with the shorter choppier steps, than trying the longer strides I was used to. It takes some getting used to but its nothing big. How long have you been doing MAF? It took me about 3 weeks of 5hrs week average before all the muscles and joints got used to the new training.

      You're using different support muscles (or depending on them more) for the form you're using, I would guess.

      As far as your footstrike, I'm not sure. I always make sure to land towards the balls of my feet but thats my barefoot running habits coming back in. 

      Without knowing much else, I'd say barring potential injury, try and keep it up for a bit and see if it goes away, or do some support muscle exercises to strengthen. You didnt specify the knee pain so again, not sure.

      Also, add some hills to your route! You'll get a better turnover doing ups and downs on your daily run.

      mohdyusuf


        I have been doing MAF for about 3 months now. I have trained myself to have my turnover rate for about 188-190 before even doing MAF.

         

        I did have the same issue even prior to MAF training, but since I was running harder after I've warmed up for those runs, no issue there. No sore at end of the run (which i usually pulled a negative split). Now with MAF and cardiac drift, I've been noticing it more.

         

        The "discomfort" is kinda under the patellar, around the patella tendon. Any strengthening i should be doing? Perhaps quads?

        BeeRunB


          Hi M,  This sort of thing is reported from time to time on this board. SInce you're a stride counter, you might be aware of Jack Daniels who preaches a 180 stride per minute count no matter how fast you're going. The stride length is what changes as you go slower or faster. The stride should shorten when you go slower. You should still be able to get the same lean and foot strike. I'm able to maintain these things at 15:00 pace as I do 8:00 pace. I don't  preach a 180 per minute stride, as I've tried it and can't do it when I run my fastest---my stride length can't get long enough.  But think about it. Keep the same form, just shorter strides.

           

          If you stick with MAF and don't exceed your training load sweet spot, you should get faster at the same HR.  If you're currently at 9:00, I don't see why you shouldn't be running sub 8:00 at MAF eventually. Your stride will lengthen.

           

          On the knee pain issue. Sometimes it caused by form change, but other times it's caused by too much training load. Have you increased your volume pretty fast? Have your MAF tests been improving?

          mohdyusuf


            When I started MAF, close to 4 months ago now, my diet has been quite clean for about few weeks, I soaked in the MAF real quickly. After about 2 months, i went from 9:33 to 8:36 avg pace MAF test. I remember, the 8:36 MAF test was wonderful. Not just because it was the fastest MAF test I've had, but also the stride felt comfortable. Since that test, I wasnt quite sure what made my MAF test kept regressing toward 8:50 MAF pace just before my Big Sur Marathon (3 weeks ago). I kept my mileage relatively the same thru these weeks (~30mpw, 5-6hrs of run a week). I also do additional walk ~2miles on 4 weekdays during lunch.

             

            I am now starting to build up and hopefully maintain close to 40mpw all MAF for few months. I have till Oct for my B race (50k), enroute to my A race (50m) in Dec. I was running 4-5 days a week, I plan to keep the running days the same, but add 1 XT day doing elliptical or stationary bike to supplement the time at MAF.

             

            About the strides length. I do see the differences in the stride length, longer on faster run, shorter on slower run (~10cm diff, garmin data). I also noticed that when I'm forced to around 9:00 pace, I use less glutes muscle for power. I will try to retrain myself with better form at this pace.

            BeeRunB


              14 seconds regression (2-3%) over a month or so isn't bad, especially if you're feeling okay, and could correct itself going forward. Increasing temperatures can make it appear that you've regressed or stagnated, when you haven't. Check on the temperature and humidity differences between your MAF tests. What can also cause regression or plateauing is some higher mental stress in your life that's a little more than usual (or a lot more). And of course, not getting enough recovery between longer runs and races. Did I mention Mercury in retrograde? 

               

              If you're doing tests monthly, as long as you're feeling good and not exhausted or dead-leggy, and your resting heart rate is normal, don't freak over a bad test. It often turns around. It's the continued regression that's a real red flag tat you're overtraining and heading toward injury, lowered immunity, or some kind of breakdown.

               

              Soon, form won't be an issue if you keep progressing at the your MAF.

              mohdyusuf


                Thanks Jimmyb, i didnt think of it that way, but you may be right. I am loving this. Learning a lot and excited for the future training cycle.