Low HR Training

1

Is the goal "Sustained Running at MAF", or "Training at MAF" ? ? ? (Read 1014 times)


Beginner all over again

    Is the Goal sustained Running at MAF, or "Training at MAF"  ? ? ?

     

    Or do the two eventually coincide ???

     

    I continue to train at MAF, but I continue to Walk Frequently.

     

    As the months go by, will I 

     

    1--walk less Frequently at the same pace

    or

    2--will the pace continue to increase, as will my Frequent Walking?

     

    or first the second, then the first?

     

    My pace on improves week to week

    I am very strictly under MAF but I do Frequently Walk still to avoid Drift.

     

    Does this even matter?  ( It doesn't matter to me, I was just wondering...)

     

      Hey Frances,

       

      I think you're over-thinking.

      Running everything at MAF can be a goal, or just a level

      you reach along the way. Training at MAF is a goal

      reached in just one run. Goals can be things like

      being able to run a marathon, or breaking 4 hours,

      or breaking 50 minutes in a 10k.

       

       

      In your recent 2:30:00 long run, you averaged 15:20 pace.

      I can run 15:20 pace. How much is walking? Are you

      running e.g. at 13:00 pace, then walking 17:00 pace?

      Just curious how you are structuring your long run

      in terms of heart rate. Are you running the whole run

      at your MAF, or are you using a zone?

       

      You might find that zone running for a long run will alllow

      you to run more of it, if not all. A zone could be MAF-20 to MAF,

      or whatever you choose. The idea is to start out at the bottom of the zone,

      hold a pace that gradually brings the HR up to the top of the zone. Slowing

      down only when you reach the top of the zone, (or stopping the run

      as I do in my self-coined "heart-time" runs.)

       You can also break down a run into parts like this:

      Using a two hour run as an example:

       

      30 minutes zone MAF-20 to MAF-15

      30 minutes zone MAF-15 to MAF-10

      30 minutes zone MAF-10 to MAF-5

      30 minutes zone MAF-5 to MAF

       

      You gradually move through each zone, or run at the top of each zone, whatever you

      like. Again, the idea being to have an even pace, and eventually, negative splits.

       

      Running at MAF for an entire long run is an exercise in slowing down, though it

      is still very beneficial. I've always preferred holding as even a pace as possible, with

      a speedup in the end when I get fit enough to do so. If the body can truly be educated

      through habit, then this type of running will develop a sense of even pace and rhythm.

      Which has helped me big time come race time.

       

      Good luck.

       

      --jimmy

      log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #142

       

      Can I be Frank


      Walk This Way...this way

        Hi Frances,

         

        Day late, Dollar short  

         

        Where ya been keepin' yourself, Jimmy?

         

        I'll just toss in my thoughts, for what they're worth.

        First, regarding my knowledge of maf training; What I "know" is far less than what I don't know! But, I'll try to offer my thoughts on your questions.

        "Is the Goal sustained Running at MAF, or "Training at MAF"  ? ? ?"
        Comment:
        To me, the goal of "sustained" running at MAF only comes into play during an actual MAF Test. This makes sense, because you want to be able to compare results to prior tests. In order to make easy assessments of progress, you want to have influencing factors as even as possible. (heart rates, weather conditions, etc.)
        This does not mean that you can't attempt sustained running at MAF for everyday training runs, but expect pace decline as the distance increases. It's just a natural function.
        Training "at" MAF seems a close cousin, in that "at" MAF implies that you stay at a particular heart rate, exclusively. Very similar to "sustained".
        I like to employ a graduated scale of heart rates by starting out very low and gradually building up to actual MAF heart rate near the finishing mile/miles, depending on how far the run will be. It gives you some interesting data.

        As the months go by, will I
        1--walk less Frequently at the same pace
        or
        2--will the pace continue to increase, as will my Frequent Walking?
        or first the second, then the first?

        Comment:
        I believe that if you are otherwise maintaining good habits in terms of diet, sleep, stress reduction, hydration, etc., then you would indeed walk less frequently for a given pace. Of course hills will alter these results. Everyone has a different rate of improvement, and as I continue to realize, it is critically imprortant to train at the proper h/r levels and to follow the principles very closely. Regular MAF Tests are also a must!

        My pace on improves week to week
        I am very strictly under MAF but I do Frequently Walk still to avoid Drift.
        Does this even matter?  ( It doesn't matter to me, I was just wondering...)

        Comment:
        Sounds like you are doing nicely, Frances. I'm betting that you will eventually have the walking down to hills, only. To me, it's far more important to maintain h/r integrity.
        I used to be quite self-conscious of my need to walk periodically in order to stay sub-MAF, but seem to be getting over it! Only very recently have I come to my senses and started to run at a "realistic" MAF h/r, so it's back to some walking for me, also.
        Not to worry!

        ts

          Is the Goal sustained Running at MAF, or "Training at MAF"  ? ? ?

           

          Or do the two eventually coincide ???

           

          I continue to train at MAF, but I continue to Walk Frequently.

           

          As the months go by, will I 

           

          1--walk less Frequently at the same pace

          or

          2--will the pace continue to increase, as will my Frequent Walking?

           

          or first the second, then the first?

           

          My pace on improves week to week

          I am very strictly under MAF but I do Frequently Walk still to avoid Drift.

           

          Does this even matter?  ( It doesn't matter to me, I was just wondering...)

           

          I always tried to run as much at MAF as possible..... using a slower running pace, you may be able to do the same.  but run-walk also works for a while, until you can get to a level where you can continuously run at some pace that's not impossibly slow.

          but, your goal is ultimately continuous running, forget about the walking as soon as you can. at least I'm assuming that your goal is not run-walk the marathon but truly run it.

          as for HR drift, you cannot avoid it by taking walk breaks, it will still continue to rise. so you can do what jimmyb wrote to keep an even pace, or just do the slow down.

           

            Using a two hour run as an example:

             

            30 minutes zone MAF-20 to MAF-15

            30 minutes zone MAF-15 to MAF-10

            30 minutes zone MAF-10 to MAF-5

            30 minutes zone MAF-5 to MAF

             

            You gradually move through each zone, or run at the top of each zone, whatever you

            like. Again, the idea being to have an even pace, and eventually, negative splits.

             

            Running at MAF for an entire long run is an exercise in slowing down, though it

            is still very beneficial. I've always preferred holding as even a pace as possible, with

            a speedup in the end when I get fit enough to do so. If the body can truly be educated

            through habit, then this type of running will develop a sense of even pace and rhythm.

            Which has helped me big time come race time.

             

            Good luck.

             

            --jimmy

             

             

             

            I always found your idea interesting, but it wouldn't work like that for me. I think it is individual.

             

            for me: the HR drift is not much until about 1.5 hours into the run, so if I did it your way then pace would not be even at all but increasing Smile and it would be a very slow pace until the last 30mins perhaps and I would never get a chance to run at a decent pace.

             

            as for races, I don't think it's helpful because at least  for me, the problem with racing is not the lack of sense of keeping even pace, rather, it's a problem with lactate build up so some parts in the muscles will shut down so your only way to keep it up will be increasing turnover of the legs. MAF running can't teach me that because the MAF HR for me generates no lactate whatsoever.


            Beginner all over again

               

              In your recent 2:30:00 long run, you averaged 15:20 pace.

              I can run 15:20 pace. How much is walking?

               

              I don't know.  I stopped Lap-ing the two on the Garmin.

              My walking is frequent, compared to running only, but I only walk 5-10 seconds at the most.

              Sometimes I just walk 10-15 steps, and jog again , then set my alarm off again, then 10 steps again, then I jog again, slower, and am okay to jog for a bit.

              How long ? I don' t know.

              I'd have to Lap the walk then Lap the jog, repeat, repeat, repeat that to be able to say really.

              I can Lap them again if you think that info would be helpful

              I can sustain-running for longer if I slow down to MAF-10, but I kept reading that At MAF is where I am going to get my most benefit ??

               

              You might find that zone running for a long run will alllow

              you to run more of it, if not all.

               

              Yes, it would but then I wouldn't be "Right At MAF" which would give me the "most benefit" for improvement.

              ?? Isn't that right?

              That's what I seem to keep reading from teh excepts here and there.

              If "sustained running" is more the goal, I can do MAF-10 and slog/jog some more.

              :-)

              I'm not complaining that I am walking, I was just wondering whether that's the way it goes.

               

               

              Just curious how you are structuring your long run

              in terms of heart rate. Are you running the whole run

              at your MAF, or are you using a zone?

               

              I call my :15 minutes warmup

              :05 MAF-50

              :05 MAF-40

              :05 MAF-30

              Then I re-start the Garmin can and time my "run time" for the day

              :05 MAF-20

              :05 MAF-15

              :05 MAF-10

              :05 MAF-5

              Then the remainder of my time is aimed for MAF-3

               

              My Garmin beeps at MAF-2 and my drift is pretty controled to the two beats except sometime after the two hour point.

               

              I can slow down and run more sustained, but I thought to get the most progress on 3 days a week I should run Right At MAF as much as possible, even if walking.

               

              I'm still really slow at MAF ---was 17:40, now 15:20--- so I didn't know if the walking would iron itself out in the months to come or whether I'd be MAF'ing at 11:00 pace and still be walking to control drift then ? ?

              :-)

               


              Beginner all over again

                To me, it's far more important to maintain h/r integrity.

                 

                This is what I was thinking

                I am v-e-r-y strict about controlling Drift and staying HR<MAF

                 

                 

                 

                I used to be quite self-conscious of my need to walk periodically in order to stay sub-MAF, but seem to be getting over it!

                 

                Yeah, I am "so over it" and don't mind the walking either     

                I was mostly finding it interesting/remarkable.

                 

                I have only made two real leaps of improvement at MAF, so I don't have a lot of experience in the progression of improvement.........

                 

                 


                Beginner all over again

                  as for HR drift, you cannot avoid it by taking walk breaks 

                   

                  Maybe I mean HR  spike not HR drift?

                   

                  I just mean setting up the upper HR limit on my Garmin

                   

                  Maybe "drift" was not the right term....

                   

                  My pace for my 90 minute runs and for almost two hours stays pretty much exactly the same from my 30 min mark to finish.  But there is walking to control the HR "spike-drift-alarm"

                   

                  :-)

                   

                     

                    I always found your idea interesting, but it wouldn't work like that for me. I think it is individual.

                     

                    for me: the HR drift is not much until about 1.5 hours into the run, so if I did it your way then pace would not be even at all but increasing Smile and it would be a very slow pace until the last 30mins perhaps and I would never get a chance to run at a decent pace.

                     

                    as for races, I don't think it's helpful because at least  for me, the problem with racing is not the lack of sense of keeping even pace, rather, it's a problem with lactate build up so some parts in the muscles will shut down so your only way to keep it up will be increasing turnover of the legs. MAF running can't teach me that because the MAF HR for me generates no lactate whatsoever.

                     

                    Lactate is always present in the blood stream even at rest. Lactic acid is produced from pyruvic acid and is used for the conversion to glucose by the liver. During strenuous exercise it may build up in the muscles, causing cramplike pains.

                     

                    So MAF running should not build up lactate to the point the body can not use it. That point is called the Lactate Threshold and should be much more strenuous then MAF running.

                     

                    I tend to run at or just below my MAF HR when I run. I prefer to adjust my pace by slowing down when HR drift begins to occur. As you became more fit, you should be able to run longer (time and distance) before the cardiac drift starts to show up. I also turn off the warning beeper on my Garmin. I prefer to just glance down at it periodically to see where I'm at and adjust from there. I still walk at hills, but usually let my HR rise to about 4 or 5 beats over MAf if the hill is short or I'm near the top as I know my HR will decrease to sub MAF as I go down the hill. That is my experience anyway and it seems to work good for me.

                     

                    MTA If you haven't read any of Dr. Maffetones books yet, I'd strongly suggest checking them out. I think reading them would clear some things up for you.

                     

                    The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                     

                    2014 Goals:

                     

                    Stay healthy

                    Enjoy life

                     

                       

                      Lactate is always present in the blood stream even at rest. Lactic acid is produced from pyruvic acid and is used for the conversion to glucose by the liver. During strenuous exercise it may build up in the muscles, causing cramplike pains.

                       

                      So MAF running should not build up lactate to the point the body can not use it. That point is called the Lactate Threshold and should be much more strenuous then MAF running.

                       

                      I tend to run at or just below my MAF HR when I run. I prefer to adjust my pace by slowing down when HR drift begins to occur. As you became more fit, you should be able to run longer (time and distance) before the cardiac drift starts to show up. I also turn off the warning beeper on my Garmin. I prefer to just glance down at it periodically to see where I'm at and adjust from there. I still walk at hills, but usually let my HR rise to about 4 or 5 beats over MAf if the hill is short or I'm near the top as I know my HR will decrease to sub MAF as I go down the hill. That is my experience anyway and it seems to work good for me.

                       

                      MTA If you haven't read any of Dr. Maffetones books yet, I'd strongly suggest checking them out. I think reading them would clear some things up for you.

                       

                      I know lactate is always present at low levels but that doesn't really matter.

                       

                      cardiac drift of 2-3bpm has always been at around 90 mins (give or take a few mins depending on the day Smile ), I guess it'll take a few more months before this 2-3bpm drift gets delayed further.

                       

                      I'm not sure why you said I should read the maffetone books. I have two of them :P

                       

                      maybe it wasn't clear for you what I meant: as far as I understand, MAF running will not teach your body how to deal with lactate removal which is useful when you suffer in races Smile

                      what MAF running will teach you is avoid producing lactate (i.e. avoid using too much glycogen and too much anaerobic energy production) and instead use fat burning (fat burning will skip the pyruvate stuff so no lactate will be generated).

                      of course, there'll always be a little lactate, but not much. and in races, it will be a lot, because you will be revving up the "anaerobic engine" too to get a faster pace. but the bigger your aerobic base is, the less that stuff will be needed.

                      that's all I meant Smile

                         

                        Maybe I mean HR  spike not HR drift?

                         

                        I just mean setting up the upper HR limit on my Garmin

                         

                        Maybe "drift" was not the right term....

                         

                        My pace for my 90 minute runs and for almost two hours stays pretty much exactly the same from my 30 min mark to finish.  But there is walking to control the HR "spike-drift-alarm"

                         

                        :-)

                         

                         

                        oh, okay, I see what you mean about spikes. I don't think it's a big problem to have a few 1-2bpm spikes here and there. for tom swiftly it is a problem because he has a heart condition.

                           

                          I can slow down and run more sustained, but I thought to get the most progress on 3 days a week I should run Right At MAF as much as possible, even if walking.

                           

                          I'm still really slow at MAF ---was 17:40, now 15:20--- so I didn't know if the walking would iron itself out in the months to come or whether I'd be MAF'ing at 11:00 pace and still be walking to control drift then ? ?

                          :-)

                           

                          to get the most progress you'd have to run more than 3 days, but I guess if you do 2 hours each time (so 3x2 hours a week), that will do too.

                           

                          anyway, nice improvement! Smile I think at 11:00 pace you can forget about the walking just fine. I run MAF at 12:00 now and it's all continuous running because I'm physically able to run at 15:00 if needed -  so I just slow down my running to control HR when needed.