Low HR Training

1

How does this look? Still a beginner, appreciate any feedback (Read 36 times)

    I started running with the Maffetone method in late September, and my first mile was usually between 14:15 and 14:45.  My initial impressions were that it was slow and frustrating, but I could run for a very long time.  I'm 53, 6' tall, and weigh in at 208lbs.  I have been in amazing shape in the past, but spent the summer sporadically riding my bike and that's about it.

     

    I did my MAF calculations and basically rounded them down to a 130bpm HR goal.  Not sure if that's legal or not, but that pace feels very good to me, I don't have any trouble breathing and can run for miles.  I have done a full Triathlon before, and the effort I put in at that heart rate feels very similar to the effort I am able to put in during the run in that event, so I really like it as a training pace.  On that subject, my prior training regimen leaned heavily on crossfit endurance, with LSD cycling and running work on the weekends.  I have arthritis in my feet, so like to build endurance without TOO much distance running when I can, as the repetitive motion tends to get painful after a couple of hours (a clean diet can only do so much where that's concerned).  I can grin and bear it, but don't like to if I have an alternative.

     

    For my warm-up, I use 120bpm and just run a mile.  At my pace, that gives me between 13 and 15 minutes reliably.  I don't stretch, and probably should.  Most of the time I don't cool down, I just go chill. I know that's dumb, but I don't think I ever have incorporated cool-downs in any training I've done.

     

    This morning I did a MAF test using a high school track.  Splits were as follows:

    Warm Up: 13:40

    Mile 1: 12:38

    Mile 2: 13:13 (+ :35)

    Mile 3: 13:26 (+ :13)

    Mile 4: 13:49 (+ :23)

    Mile 5: 14:23 (+ :34)

    Cool down: 10 minute walk at about 105 bpm.

     

    To me this kind of looks like it's supposed to, but I'm no expert (hence, this post).  I'm two months into MAF and have improved by about two minutes in my first mile.  I've never been fast--more of a diesel, but I'm starting to hope that I can get down to the 11-10 minute first mile range doing this.

     

    The title of this post really says it all.  I've been reading and trying to do what's right but my main source of information is this forum and places like it, and sometimes information can feel all over the place.  Are those numbers good for where I am, or is there too much inconsistency in the difference in how much longer each successive mile takes?  Comments are appreciated.

    BeeRunB


      Welcome to the forum, Belington.

       

      This program is as simple as what you've described in your post: getting faster at the same aerobic HR and staying healthy.

       

      Just run most of your miles at or below MAF, listen to your body, and rest when you need it.

       

      Congrats on 2 minutes of progress. That shows your volume is at a proper level and that you've been allowing yourself to recover. Your MAF test looks normal---shows HR drift as you had to slow at the same HR (if you were to run the same pace, you're HR would rise over time). The amount of drift will lessen as you get faster--I'm not sure of the reason, just that Is what I've experienced and seen.  The slowing pace at the same HR is due to muscle fiber exhaustion, dehydration, temperature, etc. It's natural to see.

       

      Good luck going forward. I hope you find a solution for the arthritis in your feet. Keep us posted on your journey.

      SD_BlackHills


        I think the single most important thing for you to do is to pay very, very close attention to your feet.  If they start to hurt even a little bit, stop running IMMEDIATELY.  Give it a day and try again with a VERY slow start (I'm talking like 16 minute pace start) just to feel it out.  I think this is your key to staying healthy.

         

        As long as you stay healthy there is probably no reason you won't crack 10:00 in the test a few months from now.  You'll probably naturally lose weight in the process.  The combination of being lighter and increasing power output at the same effort can result in some pretty substantial improvements.

         

        Your slow down by the successive mile in the test looks pretty normal for someone just getting started.  As jimmyb stated, as you get faster the amount of drift will lessen.  Eventually the only drift that I saw was due to my inability to keep my HR dialed in at MAF.  It's very difficult for me to keep it dialed in and I would oscillate above and below the target by a few bpm.  This is totally fine and if that's the only drift in pace that you are seeing in your own "effort error" then things are working!

         

        As far as not stretching or cooling down goes, I personally never stretch.  I used to constantly have nagging soreness, tightness, pain and pretty much anything short of an actual injury that would bother me.  I would 'sometimes' stretch before and after runs.  I read somewhere (can't remember the source) that runners in some study that either didn't stretch at all or stretched with extreme consistency were far less prone to injury than runners who would sometimes stretch (like me).  In the spirit of saving time as well as me being very lazy, I decided to experiment with never stretching.   Basically no issues since I made that adjustment.  So, I wouldn't necessarily sweat the non-stretching.  Hell, I don't even stretch before races.  Disclaimer:  I could be doing everything horribly wrong and just getting lucky though.

          Thanks to both of you, I really appreciate the feedback.

           

          Unfortunately, SD_Blackhills, pain-free is not really an option.  I was told that it will always be with me, but this is arthritis pain and nothing debilitating.  I get it while walking, so going slower won't help.  But I can stand it, and I've done so through several years of crossfit and one full triathlon already.  Anecdotally, it feels like the more I work through it the less it hurts.  I also take supplements to reduce inflammation and grease the joints, so to speak (e.g. fish oil).

          SD_BlackHills


            Thanks to both of you, I really appreciate the feedback.

             

            Unfortunately, SD_Blackhills, pain-free is not really an option.  I was told that it will always be with me, but this is arthritis pain and nothing debilitating.  I get it while walking, so going slower won't help.  But I can stand it, and I've done so through several years of crossfit and one full triathlon already.  Anecdotally, it feels like the more I work through it the less it hurts.  I also take supplements to reduce inflammation and grease the joints, so to speak (e.g. fish oil).

             

            You are one tough cookie then.  Way to stick with things!  I'm very interested to hear how your upcoming MAF tests go.  I think they will really surprise you if you stick with it.

              As far as not stretching or cooling down goes, I personally never stretch.  I used to constantly have nagging soreness, tightness, pain and pretty much anything short of an actual injury that would bother me.  I would 'sometimes' stretch before and after runs.  I read somewhere (can't remember the source) that runners in some study that either didn't stretch at all or stretched with extreme consistency were far less prone to injury than runners who would sometimes stretch (like me). 

               

              Brand new to this forum so this is my first forum post, but I been injured many times by overstretching and finally totally stopped.    Fast forward to a recent appointment with my Dr (ultra marathoner and Iron Man Triathlete) and he told me to never stretch but to do a deep massage or trigger point massages of my lower legs, calves and hammies with foam rollers and rolling ball.

               

              I now take a ball (like a tennis ball) and sit on the floor with it under my calves and massage (pushing down so it hurts just a little - then roll it around a little) and I foam roll my hammies...

               

              really limbers me up and I don't pull anything.........give it a shot..

              Champions are made when no one is watching

              BeeRunB


                 

                Brand new to this forum so this is my first forum post, but I been injured many times by overstretching and finally totally stopped.    Fast forward to a recent appointment with my Dr (ultra marathoner and Iron Man Triathlete) and he told me to never stretch but to do a deep massage or trigger point massages of my lower legs, calves and hammies with foam rollers and rolling ball.

                 

                I now take a ball (like a tennis ball) and sit on the floor with it under my calves and massage (pushing down so it hurts just a little - then roll it around a little) and I foam roll my hammies...

                 

                really limbers me up and I don't pull anything.........give it a shot..

                 

                Welcome Phidippides, glad you saw the link. I, too, realized stretching was giving me calf problems. I now don't stretch and just follow a warm-up protocol from about MAF-40 to my training HR. I take about 20-30 minutes. After, I do some yoga moves that stretch the spine and strengthen the core area, as when I don't do them, I tend to run into imbalances in the lower back and experience pain.

                SD_BlackHills


                   

                  Brand new to this forum so this is my first forum post, but I been injured many times by overstretching and finally totally stopped.    Fast forward to a recent appointment with my Dr (ultra marathoner and Iron Man Triathlete) and he told me to never stretch but to do a deep massage or trigger point massages of my lower legs, calves and hammies with foam rollers and rolling ball.

                   

                  I now take a ball (like a tennis ball) and sit on the floor with it under my calves and massage (pushing down so it hurts just a little - then roll it around a little) and I foam roll my hammies...

                   

                  really limbers me up and I don't pull anything.........give it a shot..

                   

                  I should mention that I also roll out the muscles occasionally just as you describe as well as not stretching.  I always do EASY warmups similar to what jimmyb describes.  If doing a faster workout all the way up to MAF, I won't hit MAF until usually at least 20 minutes in, if not more.

                     

                    I should mention that I also roll out the muscles occasionally just as you describe as well as not stretching.  I always do EASY warmups similar to what jimmyb describes.  If doing a faster workout all the way up to MAF, I won't hit MAF until usually at least 20 minutes in, if not more.

                     

                    Can you explain what you mean here?  How do you know when you hit MAF?  I try to keep my HR at 120 for the first 10 minutes, and then go to 130, which is my MAF rate.  Your last sentence suggests that you work to hit MAF, which doesn't make sense to me.

                    SD_BlackHills


                       

                      Can you explain what you mean here?  How do you know when you hit MAF?  I try to keep my HR at 120 for the first 10 minutes, and then go to 130, which is my MAF rate.  Your last sentence suggests that you work to hit MAF, which doesn't make sense to me.

                       

                      Eventually, as you improve over the course of a long period of time, MAF gets pretty fast.  MAF still feels fairly easy but it's "comfortably fast".  I don't run all the way up to MAF everyday because my legs can't handle it.  It's hard to explain.

                       

                      In an attempt to further clarify I will put it in terms of paces vs HR (these are all approximate averages from recent training runs):

                       

                      110 - 119 bpm -- 10:00 'ish pace  - super EZ

                      120 - 129 bpm  -- 8:20 to 8:50 pace - EZ and can run 70+ miles per week and still feel fine

                      130 - 139 bpm  -- 7:40 to 8:20 pace

                      140 - 149 bpm (MAF is 145) -- 7:10 to 7:40 pace

                      150 - 159 bpm -- 6:55 to 7:10 pace

                      160 - 169 bpm -- 6:30 to 6:55 pace

                      170 - 179 bpm -- 6:05 to 6:30 pace

                       

                      If you follow that progression of HR vs pace, you'll see that MAF for me at my current fitness is right around a 7:25 pace.  I also regularly run over 70 miles a week.  I do not feel like my body can handle 70 miles a week at 7:25 pace.  So, I slow it down and typically run well below MAF (usually in the 120's range).  I do spend some time in all of these zones but a VAST majority at something that feels comfortable and sustainable to keep the volume up.  And that is why I have to "work up to MAF".

                       

                      I hope this clarifies that and you find this helpful.

                      runnerclay


                      Consistently Slow

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                        Run until the trail runs out.

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                         The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

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                          SD_BlackHills, can you share how long you've been doing this, and what your pace was at the beginning?

                           

                          I think I get what you're saying though.  My MAF is only 130, but when I am in my trainer on my bike I have to work for a while to get to 130.  Keeping it there isn't a big problem though.

                          SD_BlackHills


                            SD_BlackHills, can you share how long you've been doing this, and what your pace was at the beginning?

                             

                            I think I get what you're saying though.  My MAF is only 130, but when I am in my trainer on my bike I have to work for a while to get to 130.  Keeping it there isn't a big problem though.

                             

                             

                            Hmm, let's see.  For me It's been almost 1 full year now.

                             

                            If I remember right, my pace at the beginning was in the high 9:00's at MAF = 146 bpm.  So anything into the wind was 10:00+ and anything up hill was a walk.  It took a couple of months for me to see any real benefits but that's probably because of 2 things:

                             

                            1. Supposedly it takes about 6 weeks for mitochondria development to occur from an exercise stimulus.  This increases your lactate threshold which in turn moves up the pace you can still run "easy".  
                            2. I wasn't running for a long enough period of time per run to really allow the development noted in number 1.  Ironically, most marathon plans I was finding online were not only prescribing lots of fast stuff that don't significantly move your lactate threshold but only had a couple of runs a week over 60 minutes.  I started running daily between 60-90 minutes with a weekly long run at 2 hours to 2 hours 30 minutes.  

                            To someone already used to running who is just starting low heart rate training, I would keep those 2 points in mind and shoot for those durations.  You will find they are quite easy to do.