Low HR Training

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Norwegian 4x4 Interval Training (aka Aerobic Interval Training) (Read 41 times)

BeeRunB


    ~begin book~

     

    In Dr. Phil's books' chapters on anaerobic workouts, he suggests using 90%MHR for intervals as he found that 90% worked just as well as gut-busting ones done much higher (todays HIIT is done as fast as possible for a brief spurt at intensities 95-100% MHR). Metabolically, I've seen in my own RQ test that I was burning nearly 100% sugar around 90%, and a full 100% above 93%, showing that there is not much difference.

     

    After about 10 weeks of mostly sub-MAF work and lots of walking, I just began a new interval training phase in which I'm going to do just interval workouts with walking or rest on recovery days. I've done a lot of research on interval training and the science is showing that interval training is equally as effective, if not more so, than a large volume of aerobic miles in key areas of fitness. They improve aerobic capacity, mitochondrial growth,  glycogen storage, fat utilization, speed, and lactate threshold. All key things in distance racing.

     

    Looking around the web, I came across a program called Norwegian 4x4 Interval Training. Four work intervals of 4 minutes at 90% MHR with 3 minutes of very easy running or walking in between. The Norwegian University of Science and Technology found that doing intervals at 90% for 4:00 stretches worked just as well if not better than the ones done above 95%. I realized that these were the ones I taught to a friend for high blood pressure (some studies have shown that these are very effective in lowering blood pressure in people with hypertension--here is one such study).

     

    As an experiment, I'm going to go forth with a schedule of just intervals for awhile, and see how my aerobic speed improves. In the past, I've done periods and eventually ran into a plateau or regression. But looking back, I see that I either made the interval workout part of a longer run/walk (e.g. the interval session could have been done in 45:00, but the total workout ended up being 85-90 minutes), or I increased the number of work intervals I was doing for no particular reason other than the usual mistake of "more would be better." This time I'm keeping the total workout to 60 minutes (including 20:00 WUP run and 10:00 CD walk). On recovery days, I'll either completely rest or walk at a moderate pace for an hour or less. I started out with some 5x3:00 with 3:00 rest, but am switching to the 4x4 program. Going to get HR up to 90%MHR in the first work interval, then hold that speed for the remaining work intervals. Letting HR rise.

     

    The usual thinking in training is to mix a hefty volume of easy aerobic miles with a weekly speed session. Sometimes adding the speed work is what leads to injury and OT. Sometimes too many aerobic miles leads to injury and OT. The training load limit is exceeded sometimes. What can I get done on just 2.5 hours and 12-14 miles per week total volume of running? How will this translate to racing? One thing I'm curious about is whether or not the same aerobic speed always translates into similar race performances. For example, if I could run a 1:34 half- marathon on an aerobic speed of 9:00 achieved with 60 miles per week and 12+ hours of training, can I run a 1:34 half-marathon if I achieve an aerobic speed of 9:00 on purely just 2.5 hours per week of  4x4 Norwegian interval training?

     

    In essence, how much aerobic base-building is truly necessary? Can I get the same thing done in 2.5 hours a week with just 48 minutes of hard intervals,  as I could running 50 miles per week at MAF?

     

    This doesn't mean I'm leaving the MAF philosophy behind. For years now I've understood that the heart of the training is to stay healthy, and to monitor my aerobic speed. Speed at MAF (aerobic speed) should be improving. If I'm feeling good and aerobic speed is improving, then the body is handling the training load, whether it be a high volume of aerobic miles, or a racing/anaerobic season. So the key during this experiment is a monthly MAF test, and to not lie to myself about how my body is feeling, and to listen to it.

     

    I'll bring the experiment to an end if I hit an extended plateau or regression in aerobic speed, or start to feel injured or overtrained.

     

    I'll keep all of you posted on how it goes, and will keep in touch in the daily thread, of course.

     

    Here's a page about normal gut-busting HIIT vs. 4x4 training:

    http://www.burnthefatinnercircle.com/members/4X4-high-intensity-interval-training.cfm

     

    P.S. Since I moved to Georgia from New England, I've found it very hard to get my volume up over 50 mpw without either getting over-tired or seeing regression is aerobic speed. When I lived in New England, I rarely trained in temps over 70º, except in summer—most miles were between 40º-60º, and sometimes colder. In Georgia, I do almost all of my training at around 70-85º. I've acclimated, but there still seems to be a limit due to the heat. Carrying extra fat has not helped, since blubber is meant to retain body heat. Seems it's much easier to lose weight while interval training than running lots of easy miles. So will the very little volume with the focus on 4x4 really be "less is more?" I'll be the forum guinea pig on this one. it could be a new way to looks at the anaerobic phase.

     

    ~end book~

    AlexVan


      Hey Jimmi, I was checking to see your reply then I realized you wrote the post Smile I am very interested to hear your results. You are more of a Maffetone expert than I am but it sounds like this would be a temporary strategy, with temp gains? I am on a big experiment too right now I will post soon as well. Good luck, and stay with the shinny side up Smile

      BeeRunB


        Hey Jimmi, I was checking to see your reply then I realized you wrote the post Smile I am very interested to hear your results. You are more of a Maffetone expert than I am but it sounds like this would be a temporary strategy, with temp gains? I am on a big experiment too right now I will post soon as well. Good luck, and stay with the shinny side up Smile

        Hey Alex,

         

        This wouldn't be something that Maffetone would recommend, but I'm intrigued by the science I've been reading. Doing these 2-3 times per week along with a lot of aerobic miles wouldn't be wise, but I'm hoping if I focus just on these with adequate recovery, with no added running volume, save an occasional MAF test, that I'll stay healthy and progressing. These intervals aren't too much different than what I did for a few months last year, just a tad more intense. The key going forward is to keep the "more might make me improve faster" beast at bay.

         

        I'll keep ya posted. 

        AlexVan


          And what is wrong with the "more might make me faster" it's not a beast it's a dream come true, more running Smile  I just read this book

           

          http://www.amazon.com/The-Summit-Seeker-Memoirs-Trail-Running-ebook/dp/B00BGTJ60O

           

          She is an ultra 100-mile winner but says she is much more interested in the person at the back of the race stopping to look at an interesting bug than the person in the beginning just killing themselves just to win..  She spent many years not worring about fast although she changed her perspective a little and now she wins some times...

           

          Seems like most of the "best" historical coaches (Nokes, Daniels, Lydiard, Maffetone...) agree that training volume is the right approach assuming your body can handle more and you have time.  I love running so if I only had time I would love to do more Smile   I need to win the lottery although I don't play it...

          Let me just make sure I am hearing you correctly, so what I am hearing you say is

          1. Maffetone might be wrong Smile There might be alternative ways to build aerobic base other than aerobic training?  
          2. The science of 4x4 might be an exception?  
          3. Or what I really think I hear you saying is you feel like running faster for a while and you want to see if there is a way to do it and improve aerobically or at least in running efficiency which might appear like aerobic gains for a period of time...

          I am totally back at the beginning just running very slow and base building anything other than that and I know I would get injured... I would love to get to a place that I would feel like I could experiment with faster running. Yes, best of luck and I can't wait to hear about the next reports.


          BeeRunB


            And what is wrong with the "more might make me faster" it's not a beast it's a dream come true, more running Smile  I just read this book

             

            http://www.amazon.com/The-Summit-Seeker-Memoirs-Trail-Running-ebook/dp/B00BGTJ60O

             

            She is an ultra 100-mile winner but says she is much more interested in the person at the back of the race stopping to look at an interesting bug than the person in the beginning just killing themselves just to win..  She spent many years not worring about fast although she changed her perspective a little and now she wins some times...

             

            Seems like most of the "best" historical coaches (Nokes, Daniels, Lydiard, Maffetone...) agree that training volume is the right approach assuming your body can handle more and you have time.  I love running so if I only had time I would love to do more Smile   I need to win the lottery although I don't play it...

            Let me just make sure I am hearing you correctly, so what I am hearing you say is

            1. Maffetone might be wrong Smile There might be alternative ways to build aerobic base other than aerobic training?  
            2. The science of 4x4 might be an exception?  
            3. Or what I really think I hear you saying is you feel like running faster for a while and you want to see if there is a way to do it and improve aerobically or at least in running efficiency which might appear like aerobic gains for a period of time...

            I am totally back at the beginning just running very slow and base building anything other than that and I know I would get injured... I would love to get to a place that I would feel like I could experiment with faster running. Yes, best of luck and I can't wait to hear about the next reports.


             

            1) Even Dr. Phil says that interval training will develop the aerobic system, but he always maintains that eventually these become detrimental to it (like he does on this page). Most endurance runners do speed work (anaerobic) in addition to their volume of aerobic miles. Some might cutback the aerobic miles a bit, but they still do them. The training load might still be heavy. What I'm not sure about is whether or not Dr. Phil has worked with anyone just doing interval work and nothing else. Lots of recovery time and very little volume of both time and distance. If I'm running 10 hours a week in Georgia heat, what's the toll in terms of stress and drain on things like magnesium, sodium, zinc and other things we need to maintain health as a runner? If instead, I run less than three hours per week, with just 32-48 total minutes of anaerobic intensity (90% MHR), is it less of a toll, or more? How much of what he is seen in terms of anaerobic work being detrimental is really just a training load/recovery problem? Did the runners he saw break down do anaerobic work too long in addition to a load of aerobic miles? Did anyone eliminate all aerobic miles (except for WU and CD miles) and lessen the duration load to just a few hours per week while doing intervals?

             

            The other thing to consider is how much time someone actually has to run. Running at MAF, I would need at least 60-70 miles per week to run an optimum marathon. The time I would put in was easily over 14 hours per week. At one point I put in near 20 hours. That's not only a lot of time to be on your feet, but it's a lot time out your life. If someone only has 4-6 hours per week, eventually they'd hit a plateau with training at MAF, aerobic speed would plateau, and they would need more time on feet to see any improvements.

             

            I'm not out to prove him wrong about anything. I'm just trying to see, for me, if there is a way to be running less time and getting more out of it, and still have the aerobic speed progressing. Is it possible to just do these intervals every week, keep progressing in aerobic speed, and stay healthy?

             

            2) So far, the science I've seen, and the personal stories I've read, is that people really improve and get healthier using these intervals or the more intense HIIT. Almost all of the people in these studies and in the stories aren't adding these things to an existing heavy load of aerobic miles.  In studies,  large volume of aerobic miles are generally saved for the control group.

             

            3) I think I answered this one in response to #1

             

            Thanks for the link and the back and forth, Alex!

            AlexVan


              That is an excellent response and yes for me right now trying to find 4 hours a week to run is tough so I see your point 14-20 is a lot  I have only run over 14 a few times.

               

              i am now just starting this book talking about all the heart problems ironman and other extreme athletes have,  even older marathon runners are at risk.

               

              http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JOR771A/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?ie=UTF8&btkr=1

               

              I have not gotten too far yet, I don't know much about this Ben Greenfield but he almost sounds like another maffetone.

               

              keep providing the great I for I am on pins and needles for the results Smile -alex

              AlexVan


                That is an excellent response and yes for me right now trying to find 4 hours a week to run is tough so I see your point 14-20 is a lot  I have only run over 14+ a handful of times.

                 

                i am now just starting this book talking about all the heart problems ironman and other extreme athletes have,  even older marathon runners are at risk.

                 

                http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JOR771A/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?ie=UTF8&btkr=1

                 

                I have not gotten too far yet, I don't know much about this Ben Greenfield but he almost sounds like another maffetone.

                 

                keep providing the great I for I am on pins and needles for the results Smile -alex

                  Interesting idea.

                  My concern is the mental stress of pushing to 90% max. For me (so not necessarily anyone else) I have to really psych myself up to work that hard. I enjoy it, but trying it too often or for too long starts to leave me drained- can't sleep, irritable etc. I ran into this problem with crossfit (3xweek) and when I was following a 3xweek linear progression weightlifting (and doing nothing else). Not the same protocol, but similar in the short duration, high intensity level. I just can't maintain it for more than a few months.

                   

                  Curious how this will play out for you.

                  Pinhoti 100: Finished :D

                  BeeRunB


                    Interesting idea.

                    My concern is the mental stress of pushing to 90% max. For me (so not necessarily anyone else) I have to really psych myself up to work that hard. I enjoy it, but trying it too often or for too long starts to leave me drained- can't sleep, irritable etc. I ran into this problem with crossfit (3xweek) and when I was following a 3xweek linear progression weightlifting (and doing nothing else). Not the same protocol, but similar in the short duration, high intensity level. I just can't maintain it for more than a few months.

                     

                    Curious how this will play out for you.

                     

                    Interesting. Thanks so much for this.  I'm keeping a close eye on how these intervals are affecting me. I'm thinking like a beginner and will take as much rest as needed along the way. The 4x4:00 three times a week is the goal. I'm starting much easier than that in terms of weekly training load. 

                    BeeRunB


                      Intervals are bagged. Just MAF tested a few days ago with a 2:00 drop in Aerobic speed since last test. Started a retest yesterday and even though RHR is fine, my exercise HR was through the roof. There are usually two reasons for this: increased mental (hormonal) stress and rapid weight loss. Both of which has been happening the past three weeks (dietary changes have contributed to the loss). A touch of insomnia going as well. Just in case this experiment is contributing to the hormonal load, I'm going to return to some light aerobic base work and go that road for awhile until MAF speed says the load is off. May I add: damn! But that's life. Gotta keep going.

                      AlexVan


                        Good for you Jimmi to throw in the towel early, it's so easy to kid yourself and say well maybe if I give it a little more time.... As we all know it is so much better to play it safe, or we try to know it anyway Smile