Low HR Training

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2 Year Update (Read 150 times)

BeeRunB


    Matt,


    Congrats on the improvement in race times and for getting through the MCM. 3:54 is a solid first marathon. 3:30 is a possibility for you for sure. That hairpin turn seems like a nasty flaw in the course. How are you feeling now?

     

    Recover well.

     

    --JimmyCool

     

     

    Just wanted to provide an update.  I continued the MAF training from July 16-Sep 9.  This is my mileage from start to finish and average pace, and note that I was running 20 miles a week previously:

     

    Week Miles Minutes Ave Pace
    1 35 367 10:29
    2 64 692 10:48
    3 57 540 9:28
    4 66 692 10:29
    5 61 608 9:58
    6 64 626 9:46
    7 68 644 9:28
    8 70 623 8:54
    9 18.0 167 9:16

     

    I got injured unrelated to running Sep 9.  Didnt run again until Oct 13.  Ran 3 runs of 3 miles each Oct 13, 15, 17.   Ran the Army 10-miler Sunday Oct 20, ran one 3 mile run Tuesday Oct 22, and then the Marine Corps Marathon October 27.

     

    For comparison, I ran the Cherry Blossom 10 miler in early April in 8:27 pace.  I ran the Army 10 miler in 7:45 pace, 42 second per mile improvement.  One week later I completed my first marathon.  Unfortunately there is a hairpin turn on that course about 7.5 mile mark at the top of a hill where you turn and head back down the hill.  I had to come to a near stop to avoid running over the people in front of me, but the people behind me didn't quite stop and I got run over and hurt my quad muscle pretty badly.  My family and friends were waiting to cheer at various spots from mile marker 10 to 20, so I didn't want to quit despite the fact that I knew I was injured until I at least got to mile 20.  Probably like a lot of marathon injuries it gradually worsened until I was running with a hitch in my stride and then the pain spread to other places.  I made it to the 20 mile mark and then just a little further and then I finally allowed myself to alternate walk/jog the rest of the way.  I did my last walk section before the 25 mile marker and then jogged all the way in.  I couldn't bear the idea of walking past the cheering marines and walking up the hill to the memorial.  Normally I just toss my finishing medals away, but this finishing medal I am going to keep, because for the first time it wasn't just normal running pain and fatigue, it was a real mental effort just to finish a race.  

     

    Anyway, I finished in 3:54, which is 8:56 pace.  If you told me before the race I would run 8:56 I would have been discouraged, even despite the lack of training the last 6+ weeks.  However, I didn't wear a watch, and I didn't see the clock when I started, I just ran.  So I was pleasantly surprised to see my splits, which very much validate the MAF running.  Even though I was just trying to keep going and was only thinking about my leg the whole time, my pace continued to improve throughout the entire race from 5k until I walked from mile 20.5 to mile 21. Instead of focusing on the negative last 5-6 miles, I will console myself with the fact that I ran 21 miles in Oct at a pace faster than my 10 mile race in April.   Also, my conditioning still seemed OK despite the time off.  I can't guarantee that I wouldn't have slowed down some anyway due to fatigue, but it hadn't happened yet which is a great sign.  Overall I was about 4,100 out of a field of 23,500.      

     

    Now I'm more motivated to get back out and run some MAF again once my leg feels normal.  My next goal is a marathon in the Spring at sub 3:30 pace.  Jimmy, thanks for your support!

     

    These are my splits from the unofficial results:

     

    Location Net Time Clock Time Time of Day Pace
    5K 27:29:00 33:24:00 8:33:28 8:50 /mi
    10K 52:54:00 58:49:00 8:58:53 8:31 /mi
    15K 1:19:01 1:24:56 9:25:00 8:28 /mi
    20K 1:43:18 1:49:13 9:49:18 8:18 /mi
    Half 1:48:44 1:54:39 9:54:43 8:17 /mi
    25K 2:08:25 2:14:19 10:14:24 8:16 /mi
    30K 2:33:40 2:39:34 10:39:39 8:14 /mi
    35K 3:03:55 3:09:50 11:09:55 8:27 /mi
    40K 3:39:53 3:45:48 11:45:52 8:50 /mi
    Finish 3:54:14 4:00:09 12:00:14 8:56 /mi
    mt79


      Thanks, Jimmy.  Everything is healing nicely except the quad, which is still not feeling good, but it is getting better every day.  I am hoping to go for a jog this weekend, but I don't have any reason to rush.

       

      Regarding the turn, I think in the future I will line up closer to the front corral in these big races.  I didn't mind being stuck in the huge pack at the beginning, because it prevented me from going out too fast.  The only challenge was the water stations and the occasional walker.  Around mile 10 it started to thin out some, and probably by mile 15 or 16 you could pass people conveniently.  It was the same experience at the Army 10 miler the week before, but that was worse, because the crowds don't clear up at any point during the race.  And the end of the Army 10 miler, if you are running in the larger packs actually gets clogged near the pentagon in the narrower finishing section.  Again, I didn't mind, because I was saving my energy for the marathon a week later, but it probably frustrated some faster people who arrived late.

       

      Overall, both races were really well run and I plan to do them both again if I can get in through the registration.  If I am significantly more fit next year, I will definitely start closer to the front so I can focus more on the running and less on the traffic.  

      mt79


        2014 Update on my MAF progress.  The biggest surprise for me was how much my MAF running pace improved while doing very little running.  

         

        Oct 2013 Army 10 miler 77:25

        Oct 2014 Army 10 miler 68:20 

         

        Oct 2013 Marine Corps Marathon 3:54

        Oct 2014 Marine Corps Marathon  3:25

         

        Best MAF pace in 2013 8:42

        Best MAF pace in 2014 8:00 

         

        In 2013 I started seriously doing MAF in July.  I ran 50-75 miles a week until I injured myself in September and then limped my way to the 2 races in October.  While the MAF pace was very gentle on my body versus how I used to train, the total mileage caused a lot of nagging and a couple more serious injuries.  

         

        I took the winter and part of the spring off from Nov 2013 until April of 2014.  

         

        In April/May 2014 I gave it another shot doing MAF at good mileage about 50 per week.  I had fewer issues with the lower mileage, but one shin got gradually got worse until I was forced to stop.  I took June off and that was OK because I had a 3 week vacation anyway.  When I started training again in July, I wanted to continue MAF, but I didn't want to keep getting injured.  I am in the camp of MAF people that feels that high volume is the best way to get the most out of MAF training.  

         

        I decided to try other cardio and do 0 running until my body felt totally healed.  For 3 weeks, I did between 2.5 - 3.5 hours per day 6 days per week.  I rode my bicycle, rode the stationary bike, walked on a treadmill at steep incline, used the arc trainer, and occasionally lifted weights.  Then I began running 1 time per week, then 2 times per week, then 3, and finally I topped out at 4 times per week the last week of Sept.  As I increased the running, I decreased the volume of everything else and added in swimming as well, because it doesn't work the legs at all.  My daily cardio dropped to 1.5 hours 6 days per week.  My mileage peaked the last 3 weeks at 35, 38, 45 miles.  

         

        The last 5 weeks ending on Sept 28, I did 2 non MAF workouts per week, so 10 total in the entire training period from April to Oct. The 1st workout was a 60 minute tempo run.  The 2nd workout was a traditional long run where my hear rate would drift north of my MAF HR the last few miles.  My long runs were 13, 14, 15, 18, 15 miles.  I injured my foot on Sept 28 and I took the next 2 weeks easy and then ran the Army 10 miler.  Then I took off 2 weeks easy again and ran the marathon.  

         

        When I wrote up my 2013 results, I put down a goal of a sub 3:30 marathon for my 2nd marathon and MAF got me there.  

         

        Goal for marathon 3 in 2015: Break 3:10.  Training improvements:

        I plan to exercise over the winter for the first time in a decade, mostly cross training at my MAF HR and running 3 days per week at first

        I plan to very gradually increase my running mileage

        I plan to run my last few long runs before my next marathon at or above 20 miles

        I plan to alternate 60 minute tempo runs with 60 minute hill workouts to build up my leg muscles

        I plan to lift weights a lot more to build up the leg muscles

         

        Barring injury, I think 3:10 is a realistic and challenging goal.  I also plan to run some shorter races here and there.  My natural abilities are more suited to short distances and that might be a fun change.  

        runnerclay


        Consistently Slow

          Matt WTG!!!!

          Run until the trail runs out.

           SCHEDULE 2016--

           The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

          unsolicited chatter

          http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

          mt79


            Thanks, Clay!

            Judd67


              This is great information!

              great progress, and seems like proof of future improvement for me!

               

              im interested to hear how 2015 goes.

                So how did the 2015 race go???

                mt79


                  Long time since I posted, sorry for the lack of update last Fall.  Had my first child 30 days after the race and moved from VA to FL a couple months later.  He is still crazy and doesn't sleep at all, but I finally started running as of today and when I was logging my miles, I realized I never updated the thread.

                   

                  Here are my 2015 results.  I made the 3:10 marathon goal by a few seconds.

                   

                  Oct 2013 Army 10 miler 77:25

                  Oct 2014 Army 10 miler 68:20

                  Oct 2015 Army 10 miler 64:34

                   

                  Oct 2013 Marine Corps Marathon 3:54

                  Oct 2014 Marine Corps Marathon  3:25

                  Oct 2015 Marine Corps Marathon  3:09:37

                   

                  Sept 2015 9/11 Arlington Memorial 5K - 18:47 (6:03 pace - 20th overall out of 2900, got a nice little crystal trophy for age group)

                   

                  Best MAF pace in 2013 8:42

                  Best MAF pace in 2014 8:00

                  Best MAF pace in 2015 7:45

                   

                  I followed through with my training plans to some extent.  I did extensive non running cardio throughout.  I started earlier, avoided more serious injury/downtime, and I lifted a lot of leg weights.  Unfortunately I did get banged up, so my hard tempo/hill runs got cut out.  So I basically did nothing but LRH training.  I also got more long runs in than in prior years and some longer distances as well.  My mileage was in the 25-45 mile per week range from March through July.  August I went too far and did 65 miles per week.  September/October about 50 miles total per month due to the injuries from August.

                   

                  I did a lot of cross training from mid-September to mid-October.  My typical workout was biking 30 minutes to the gym, doing 60-120 minutes on the arc trainer or stationary bike, and then biking 30 minutes home.  I wore a heart rate monitor and tried to keep my HR in the 144-150 range the entire time.  For reference, my HR is usually around 145 running 7:45 pace on a treadmill at 1% incline.  If my HR got close to 150, I would back off the resistance but keep my stride rate or pedal RPMs consistent.  I tried to do 1 long run or mid-long run per week.

                   

                  The other 3 helpful modifications from prior years.

                   

                  1.  I lost a couple extra pounds.  Supposed to give you 2 seconds per mile per pound of fat you drop.

                   

                  2.  I bought a pair of lighter shoes.  Based on my understanding from some physics articles I read, these should have helped me cut 5-10 seconds off my mile pace.  The weight on your feet is dramatically more impactful than weight on your body.  Unfortunately it rained all day, so they were soaked and probably heavier than my trainers in prior years.

                   

                  3.  Carb loading.  I found an article from an MIT runner that discussed with real math, the marathon carb demands on the body based on pace and used the calculator he created to approximate my requirements.  I ate an enormous amount of carbs the day before the race around 3000 out of 3600 total for the day.  The morning of the race I had another 1000 almost entirely carbs.  I consumed another 225+ per hour during the race and was very consistent with water/gatorade intake.  This was the first year I didn't bonk at all.

                   

                  As is my tradition, I'll set a new marathon goal here.  I'd like to break 3:00 in 2017, since 2016 is already mostly over.  I'm convinced from my 3 races, 5K, 10M, Marathon, that my aerobic conditioning is solid.  I really couldn't go faster in the 5k, but I didn't feel bad at the finish.  I think to improve in a 5k, I would need to do some sort of faster workouts 1 time per week maybe.  I'd like to break 18 in a 5k in 2017 as well.

                   

                  I will try to be more diligent in responding to replies going forward!

                  BeeRunB


                    7:45 aerobic speed is berry, berry, nice, MT. Awesome progress.

                     

                    Extra body fat will slow you down in two ways. One, the drag. Two, the more fat you have the slower you dissipate heat.

                     

                    Lighter shoes are a must.

                     

                    I carboloaded before all the marathons I ran, and I hated it. Felt so blah. But It didn't hurt. According to Stu Mittleman (Slow Burn) you can get so fast in the MAF range you don't need to carboload for a marathon. You'll be using so much fat in the mix that your 2000 calories of glycogen will be preserved. It's a dream. 

                     

                    Keep going!

                     

                    Long time since I posted, sorry for the lack of update last Fall.  Had my first child 30 days after the race and moved from VA to FL a couple months later.  He is still crazy and doesn't sleep at all, but I finally started running as of today and when I was logging my miles, I realized I never updated the thread.

                     

                    Here are my 2015 results.  I made the 3:10 marathon goal by a few seconds.

                     

                    Oct 2013 Army 10 miler 77:25

                    Oct 2014 Army 10 miler 68:20

                    Oct 2015 Army 10 miler 64:34

                     

                    Oct 2013 Marine Corps Marathon 3:54

                    Oct 2014 Marine Corps Marathon  3:25

                    Oct 2015 Marine Corps Marathon  3:09:37

                     

                    Sept 2015 9/11 Arlington Memorial 5K - 18:47 (6:03 pace - 20th overall out of 2900, got a nice little crystal trophy for age group)

                     

                    Best MAF pace in 2013 8:42

                    Best MAF pace in 2014 8:00

                    Best MAF pace in 2015 7:45

                     

                    I followed through with my training plans to some extent.  I did extensive non running cardio throughout.  I started earlier, avoided more serious injury/downtime, and I lifted a lot of leg weights.  Unfortunately I did get banged up, so my hard tempo/hill runs got cut out.  So I basically did nothing but LRH training.  I also got more long runs in than in prior years and some longer distances as well.  My mileage was in the 25-45 mile per week range from March through July.  August I went too far and did 65 miles per week.  September/October about 50 miles total per month due to the injuries from August.

                     

                    I did a lot of cross training from mid-September to mid-October.  My typical workout was biking 30 minutes to the gym, doing 60-120 minutes on the arc trainer or stationary bike, and then biking 30 minutes home.  I wore a heart rate monitor and tried to keep my HR in the 144-150 range the entire time.  For reference, my HR is usually around 145 running 7:45 pace on a treadmill at 1% incline.  If my HR got close to 150, I would back off the resistance but keep my stride rate or pedal RPMs consistent.  I tried to do 1 long run or mid-long run per week.

                     

                    The other 3 helpful modifications from prior years.

                     

                    1.  I lost a couple extra pounds.  Supposed to give you 2 seconds per mile per pound of fat you drop.

                     

                    2.  I bought a pair of lighter shoes.  Based on my understanding from some physics articles I read, these should have helped me cut 5-10 seconds off my mile pace.  The weight on your feet is dramatically more impactful than weight on your body.  Unfortunately it rained all day, so they were soaked and probably heavier than my trainers in prior years.

                     

                    3.  Carb loading.  I found an article from an MIT runner that discussed with real math, the marathon carb demands on the body based on pace and used the calculator he created to approximate my requirements.  I ate an enormous amount of carbs the day before the race around 3000 out of 3600 total for the day.  The morning of the race I had another 1000 almost entirely carbs.  I consumed another 225+ per hour during the race and was very consistent with water/gatorade intake.  This was the first year I didn't bonk at all.

                     

                    As is my tradition, I'll set a new marathon goal here.  I'd like to break 3:00 in 2017, since 2016 is already mostly over.  I'm convinced from my 3 races, 5K, 10M, Marathon, that my aerobic conditioning is solid.  I really couldn't go faster in the 5k, but I didn't feel bad at the finish.  I think to improve in a 5k, I would need to do some sort of faster workouts 1 time per week maybe.  I'd like to break 18 in a 5k in 2017 as well.

                     

                    I will try to be more diligent in responding to replies going forward!

                    Buzzie


                    Bacon Party!

                      Great update! Looking forward to seeing what's next

                      Liz

                      pace sera, sera

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