Low HR Training

12

So what is my max heart rate? (Read 895 times)

    First run at MAF today, actually ended up 2 beats lower than MAF.

     

    Here's the link to runkeeper that has the heart rate graph http://runkeeper.com/user/npaden/activity/86664886

     

    The elevation chart looks hilly, but it's not, just some very slight gradual changes, it climbs a whopping 30 feet of elevation from the lowest point to the highest point, just some little dips and stuff in there that make the chart look hilly.

     

    The first mile had some swings that may or may not have been real, I wet my chest strap down before I run and the shirt I wear usually doesn't have any static issues and it was a humid morning so it may have all been real just getting settled in.  Mile 2 was a surprise as I dropped way down in there into the 120's in the first half of mile 2.  Right now I have my phone just give me audio cues on my pace and heart rate every 1/2 mile and try to adjust from there so that's why the spike up to 144 after the 1.5 mile mark as I was picking up the pace a little bit since my heart rate had dropped down so much.  Everything rocked along pretty well, until the last part of mile 3 there is a very slight uphill and I slowed a little bit to compensate and must have slowed too much as my heart rate dropped back down into the low 130's there for a bit.  4.5 you can see another blip as I picked up the pace a little after my monitor told me my heart rate was a little low still.  Mile 6 is a slight downhill and the pace picked up there, but my HR did well, actually dropping down to 128 right at 5.89 miles.

     

    Not sure if that is too much fluctuation or not?  I would prefer not to have to run while looking at my phone constantly, I can set my audio cues to tell me my pace and heart rate every 1/4 mile if I need to keep the range a little closer.  Another thought I just had was that I could turn the pace audio cue off and just have it tell me my heart rate numbers, that would help me avoid worrying about how slow I'm going.

     

    Oh well, ended up with 6.02 miles on the clock at an 11:27 avg pace and 134 avg heart rate.  I have to go all the way back to the first week in January to find another run that slow and that was when I first got my heart rate monitor and was trying to run at 70% of my HRR.  I put in a 10.20 mile run with 2 big hills at a 11:32 avg pace and 147 avg heart rate.

     

    This was a perfect morning to run, overcast, a little light rain mixed in, 55 degrees and 10 mph wind so I think that helped keep my heart rate low.  I'm afraid that when it gets back to 75 degrees and sunny like it should before too long, I'll end up having to slow down even more.

    Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

    Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

        

      Not sure if that is too much fluctuation or not?  I would prefer not to have to run while looking at my phone constantly, I can set my audio cues to tell me my pace and heart rate every 1/4 mile if I need to keep the range a little closer.  Another thought I just had was that I could turn the pace audio cue off and just have it tell me my heart rate numbers, that would help me avoid worrying about how slow I'm going.

       

      Oh well, ended up with 6.02 miles on the clock at an 11:27 avg pace and 134 avg heart rate.  I have to go all the way back to the first week in January to find another run that slow and that was when I first got my heart rate monitor and was trying to run at 70% of my HRR.  I put in a 10.20 mile run with 2 big hills at a 11:32 avg pace and 147 avg heart rate.

       

      This was a perfect morning to run, overcast, a little light rain mixed in, 55 degrees and 10 mph wind so I think that helped keep my heart rate low.  I'm afraid that when it gets back to 75 degrees and sunny like it should before too long, I'll end up having to slow down even more.

       

      Personally, I would turn off the pace cues and just have the HR audio function, maybe every 1/4 mile. Honestly, your pace and average HR doesn't look bad to me, mine was much worse when I started out. Broken record time, but getting the pace, or lack there of, out of your mind is the toughest part of a Maffetone LHR training regime.

       

      Question for you......How did you feel phisically after that run compared to a similar distance with your average HR in the upper 140's to lower 150's? 

       

      The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

       

      2014 Goals:

       

      Stay healthy

      Enjoy life

       

        Personally, I would turn off the pace cues and just have the HR audio function, maybe every 1/4 mile. Honestly, your pace and average HR doesn't look bad to me, mine was much worse when I started out. Broken record time, but getting the pace, or lack there of, out of your mind is the toughest part of a Maffetone LHR training regime.

         

        Question for you......How did you feel phisically after that run compared to a similar distance with your average HR in the upper 140's to lower 150's? 

         

        To be honest I really couldn't tell much difference after the run, I haven't felt sore or tired at the end of my easy runs in a while.  I'm way more sore from doing yard work this weekend than running 8 miles Saturday morning at a 148 avg heart rate.

         

        I did notice that I seemed to be looking around more during my run than normal instead of just watching my feet or the road ahead of me.  That could have just been that it was a nice morning and the light rain was really nice to run in though.  I was able to breath through my nose instead of my mouth for probably 20 or 30 seconds without feeling like I was running short on breath, I'd never really tried that before but it just felt natural since I wasn't breathing very hard.  As far as easy conversational pace, I listened to music and I felt like I could have probably been signing along the entire way, it just didn't feel like much of an effort at all.

         

        I've been downloading podcasts and audio books and listening to them on my easy runs and the miles just roll by if the book is good, everything is on autopilot, kind of like driving a car down the interstate listening to an audio book.

         

        I'm leaning more and more toward trying to give running at MAF a shot this summer.  I probably should buy the book I guess.  The only thing I'm not sure of is that I was planning on curbing my miles down to about 25 mpw this summer and not sure how that fit in with a MAF plan.  The other drawback is I'm going to have to start getting up a little earlier as my 6 mile run took 1:09 yesterday morning and the last few times I'd run it at 70% of HRR it only took 1:02.  My time on my feet will go up about 30 minutes a week running everything at MAF vs. mostly at 70% HRR and I was doing one speed workout each week so my average pace was running right around 10:00 overall and now it's looking like it will be around 11:30. 

         

        Right now my tenative summer plan is 60 minutes elliptical work on Monday, 60 minutes easy run on Tuesday and Thursday mornings and then 90 - 120 minute run on the weekend.  Is that going to keep building a base at MAF or do I need to add in some more?  I had planned on adding in some very short speedwork here and there, but that seems to be out if I want to focus on MAF.  Maybe I can throw in a 30 minute run on Wednesday mornings and another 30 minutes sometime during the weekend.

         

        Will 4 days at 60 minutes each be enough to improve at MAF or do I really need to try to figure how to fit in more?

         

        Thanks for the input!

         

        Nahtan

        Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

        Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

          So which Maffetone book do I need to buy?  There are a bunch on Amazon.

           

          Just stick with "The Maffetone Method: The Holistic, Low-Stress, No-Pain Way to Exceptional Fitness" or "Training for Endurance"?

           

          There are several others that seem to include diet and lifestyle stuff as well, even one on "Fix your Feet".

           

          Thanks, Nathan

          Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

          Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

            So which Maffetone book do I need to buy?  There are a bunch on Amazon.

             

            Just stick with "The Maffetone Method: The Holistic, Low-Stress, No-Pain Way to Exceptional Fitness" or "Training for Endurance"?

             

            There are several others that seem to include diet and lifestyle stuff as well, even one on "Fix your Feet".

             

            Thanks, Nathan

             

            I have "The MAffetone MEthod......" and have never read any of the others, although I'm thinking about get "Training for Endurance".

             

            I'm sure Jimmy has read them all so he should be able to give you a good idea of which one would be more useful to you.

             

            The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

             

            2014 Goals:

             

            Stay healthy

            Enjoy life

             

              Well, based on my first 2 runs at MAF it looks like it gives the quickest progress!

               

              Okay, maybe I wasn't fully recovered from my HM on 4/28 on the first one?  I thought I was, but based on this mornings run I'm thinking I must not have been.

               

              Ran 6.02 miles at MAF (actually ended up 2 beats lower) Tuesday morning.  It was an 11:27 avg pace.  55 degrees, 5 - 10mph northeast wind (that's a light wind for here).

               

              Today I ran the same route 6.03 this miles this time, again at MAF (ended up 1 beat lower than MAF this morning).  I ended up with a 10:58 avg pace.  57 degrees and calm.

               

              Here's a link to my workout with heart rate included (still haven't figured out how to get my heart rate stuff over to my log here from runkeeper)

               

              http://runkeeper.com/user/npaden/activity/87127487

               

              I felt like I was much more in control of my heart rate today than Tuesday.  Still had my audio cues set for every 1/2 mile, but it seemed that I could sense when I was getting a little too fast and slow down without having to hear it from my heart monitor. 

               

              If I keep improving like this I'm all set!  Big grin

              Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

              Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

                The other thing I'm trying to wrap my head around is what everyone on here is probably trying to figure out as well.

                 

                I'm sure MAF, HADD, Lyric, etc., etc., all work well for runners like me starting out.  You really don't even need a heart rate monitor to just run easy and build a base and that will do wonders starting out.

                 

                I'm just not sure which to try to follow, or if it really even matters that much. 

                 

                Burnt Toast, does your MAF number fall in line with 75% of your Max Heart rate?  If I go with my unadjusted MAF of 136 that is quite a bit different than my 75% of Max number which is 145.

                  

                For me 180-age MAF does not fall in line with 75% of max, let alone 70% HRR or 75% HRR. It's significantly lower than any of those. Also, I find that it doesn't necessarily matter much which one you follow as long as the HR is "low enough" (don't ask what low enough EXACTLY means at this point as I do not know Wink ). I'm saying that after years of experience with several variations on LHR and other training methods. But then I'm a strange exception with my maxHR up at 210, and my MAF is supposedly low 150's.

                 

                And no, I don't really think that is the same aerobic load as someone else's calculated MAF at the same age and fitness level as me with a maxHR of 180. To think it is the same would be completely going against logic. Consider also the fact that 220-age formula is not reliable to guess at maxHR. Why should 180-age formula be any more reliable? The adjustments I'm sure do help a bit and they are cool but I'm not convinced they help enough to set the intensity level to the same for everyone.

                 

                One thing I do find relevant here is that HR graphs (if drawing them against lactate levels, RQ numbers, VO2max percentages, whatever) do seem individual, partially determined by genetics, and partially by your most recent training. Different training will shift the graph. This also makes all this attempt at predicting a proper MAF HR more convoluted and less likely that one formula would work. Maffetone himself admits somewhere in an article of his that it doesn't necessarily work for everyone.

                 

                I can see the guys here were trying to argue by avoiding to address this issue specifically, resorting to such general claims as "it's not about to run slow", "drop your ego"... That's because they also don't know the answer Wink Maffetone himself also could not address the issue when I asked. He just had that mention somewhere that the formula is not the end of all. It's just a guess from minimal amount of data, which may be useful because of how little data it requires but then that's the drawback of it as well. He himself does not use the formula for his patients but a more thorough evaluation instead. Btw, he never published the standard deviation about the formula, too bad, that too, I would be so curious to see. (It is published about the 220-age and other maxHR formulas.)

                  Thanks for the input. 

                   

                  Since I posted all this back in May, I've been running with a target HR of 180 - my age (136) for the most part all summer.  It's done pretty well, but has also been hard to really track results because the temperatures are much higher now than they were back in May when I first started so my progression isn't very dramatic.  I'm figuring that I'm getting the miles in and even if they are a little slower it's not going to make that much difference in the grand scheme of things.  Probably reduces my injury chances as much as anything.  My primary reason for working out is to get in shape for hunting and the low HR stuff probably works better for that as well.

                   

                  I'm kind of getting to where I don't stress about the exact number as much other than trying to track my progress periodically.  My HRM has been messing up occasionally and usually I can tell when it is wrong based on how I'm feeling on my run at the time.   I very much doubt that running at 141 avg HR will be much different to my progression vs. running at 136, but it does give me a target and since I rarely keep below the target HR it's probably good to have it set a little low.  I can see how many experienced runners are just running "easy" and that is probably pretty equivalent to MAF for them.   

                   

                  I'm very curious to see how my progression tracks as we get to the fall and the temperatures start getting closer to what they were back in May when I first started my MAF training. 

                  Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                  Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

                    Thanks for the input. 

                     

                    Since I posted all this back in May, I've been running with a target HR of 180 - my age (136) for the most part all summer.  It's done pretty well, but has also been hard to really track results because the temperatures are much higher now than they were back in May when I first started so my progression isn't very dramatic.  I'm figuring that I'm getting the miles in and even if they are a little slower it's not going to make that much difference in the grand scheme of things.  Probably reduces my injury chances as much as anything.  My primary reason for working out is to get in shape for hunting and the low HR stuff probably works better for that as well.

                     

                    I'm kind of getting to where I don't stress about the exact number as much other than trying to track my progress periodically.  My HRM has been messing up occasionally and usually I can tell when it is wrong based on how I'm feeling on my run at the time.   I very much doubt that running at 141 avg HR will be much different to my progression vs. running at 136, but it does give me a target and since I rarely keep below the target HR it's probably good to have it set a little low.  I can see how many experienced runners are just running "easy" and that is probably pretty equivalent to MAF for them.   

                     

                    I'm very curious to see how my progression tracks as we get to the fall and the temperatures start getting closer to what they were back in May when I first started my MAF training. 

                     

                     

                    I don't know if the difference between 136 vs 141 matters for you. It may or may not.

                     

                    When I just run "easy", it's above HR calculated by MAF formula.

                     

                    Yea let us know about your progress. Smile

                     

                     

                     

                    I didn't realize that everything relating to heart rate training was controversial.  Silly me I googled, "calculating your maf" and read the first article that popped up.  http://www.trimycoach.com/articles/heart_rate_training.html

                     

                     

                    Well I checked that article now... it says:

                     

                    Your maf zone ends at the point where you can no longer carry on an uninterrupted conversation while training………..and begins 10 beats below that point.

                     

                    Woah. That for me would be around 175-185bpm. Well I can still pretty easily converse past that HR but it's not as simple as at HR's lower than that. Then there is another HR, below which I can talk as if I were just sitting in place and not running. That HR is around 160bpm for me.

                     

                    Roughly 10 bpm above the Maf zone lies your AT or anaerobic threshold.

                     

                    Then that... my AT has been measured at 189bpm. So that definition puts the MAF at around 179bpm.

                     

                    180-age is 151bpm for me (153 if I don't update it from the last 2 years). My "very easy runs" are anywhere below 170bpm but above 150bpm. Sometimes just around 150 but usually 160 or a bit higher. According to actual lactate test easy runs are at or below 175bpm for me.

                     

                    Take this info for what it's worth. I'm definitely an outlier with my maxHR and my high AT HR, so don't worry about it too much if you are not such an outlier... :P

                    12