Low HR Training

12

Progress report (Read 47 times)

tortoise88


    Quick notes on my progress since starting conventional 5K training 8 weeks ago (2 hard workouts/week with LHR/MAF runs on other days):

     

    1. After an encouraging first week which I posted about at the time, of course I got sick and had to take a week off.  I guess it was time for the virus of the month from our daycare center.
    2. Two years ago I had reached a 10:00 mpm average through LHR training and then started some speedwork.  At that time I was only able to run a mile in 6:45.  This time around, I plateaued again just under 10:00 mpm with strict Maffetone but now I can pretty easily do a 6:00 mile and could probably come close to 5:30.  In both cases my MAF was pretty similar and having aged 2 years can’t help so why am I so much faster now?  I’m thinking that although my aerobic fitness is at about the same level as measured by MAF, several additional months of running (albeit at exclusively MAF pace) have strengthened my running muscles, boosting my performance and stamina at higher speeds.  Or it could be the shoes - I got new shoes, too.Wink
    3. Along the same lines, 2 years ago I ran a couple of 5K’s and did not even reach my previous (pre-Maffetone) personal best of 22:30 and was somewhat disappointed by that (which is kind of ironic in that you have to have a good amount of patience to stick with Maffetone training, but I guess I was done being patient lol).  This time around I’m hoping to run at close to 6:00 mpm pace (first race will be in a month) and I’m pretty confident I’ll be able to do that, if not now then by later in the summer and that projects to a sub-19:00 5K which would pretty much flabbergast me.  I’m still kind of questioning it, like how do I know that this track is *really* 400 m around, or am I somehow messing up with my watch and I’m really running slower than I think…Bottom line is my first wave of maffetone training brought me close to my previous personal best 5K without really any speedwork and my second wave has apparently pushed me to another level.
    4. Last week on my MAF run I averaged 9:30 mpm for an hour, by far a personal best.  Previous best (for that route which is my main reference route) was 9:50.  So far, track work has not hurt my aerobic fitness at all and has apparently helped it.
    5. I still haven’t been successful at all in losing the weight I gained over the holidays (yeah, the ones from 4 months ago..).  The biggest obstacle now is that with the harder workouts, my body is really in “feed me Seymour!!” mode.  So, I keep playing the “and if I was 10 pounds lighter, I would have gone *this* fast….” game, which surprisingly never gets old. Smile

     

    My game plan is to finish this 12-week training cycle, do a couple of 5K races in May, bask in the glow of my amazing accomplishment (even if only break 21:00 I’m going to be ecstatic), then go back to strict MAF training until maybe August, then start a new 5K training cycle and go for broke in October/November races.  While I’m back in “easy” MAF mode, I’ll see if I can shed my extra poundage and use the laws of physics to my advantage.

     

    Cheers,

    tortoise88

      hmm, interesting... how much training did you do before you jumped from 6:45 to 5:30 mile? was the training all MAF? it makes no sense then why instead of MAF pace the anaerobic paces improved. or is this the 8 weeks of conventional 5K training? what did you do for those 2 years?

       

      if it's a few months of MAF-only running (or even 2 years of it lol) and 8 weeks of speedwork then that could make sense however. (in this case, after returning to MAF-only training, do expect the MAF pace to improve soon.)

       

      btw did you actually try to run 5:30? that's quite some faster than 6:00. and did you use the same track than for the 6:45 one? why are you unsure that it's not short on 400m? Surprised I mean, any reason for that or is this just you disbelieving your improvements? Cool

       

      shoes don't count this much.

       

      if you want a comparison: I may be able to run a 6min mile but not yet longer than that at that pace, definitely not yet 5K. 180-age pace is around 9:40.

       

      good luck to the races etc.!

      tortoise88


        Hi cmon2,

         

        (I tried to use the quote tool but it didn't work so I just cut and pasted the quotes...)

         

        “hmm, interesting... how much training did you do before you jumped from 6:45 to 5:30 mile? was the training all MAF? it makes no sense then why instead of MAF pace the anaerobic paces improved. or is this the 8 weeks of conventional 5K training? what did you do for those 2 years?”

         

         

        Chronology with notes:

        Jan - July 2011:  Maffetone only, peaking at 10:00 MAF (starting at ~13:00)

         

        July 2011:  22:50 5K and 6:45 mile.  The mile was one attempt with no significant speedwork leading up to it.  I imagine I could have improved that somewhat but not by much I don’t think.

         

        August 2011 – August 2012:  Baby time.  Sedentary other than periodic short sprints to attend to the little prince.

         

        September 2012 – January 2013: Maffetone only, plateauing at 9:50 MAF

         

        February – March:  5K specific training, Tue/Thu track work, other days LHR training, I’m on week 7 now (started 8 weeks ago but was sick for one week).  I have not attempted a personal best mile but have run several in 6:00 with gas still in the tank and done 400m in 70 seconds so I’m projecting a 5:30 mile, but maybe I’d only be able to get it down to 5:40 or so – who knows.  Either way, definitely at least a minute faster than 2 years ago.  I did not run more than 800m early in this training phase but even then I was doing 90 second laps pretty easily, so I don’t really credit the recent speedwork with this improvement (I’m sure it’s helping but I’m fairly sure I could have at least broken 6:00 before I did any of this track work).

         

         

         

        “btw did you actually try to run 5:30? that's quite some faster than 6:00. and did you use the same track than for the 6:45 one? why are you unsure that it's not short on 400m? Surprised I mean, any reason for that or is this just you disbelieving your improvements? ”

         

        I don’t have any real reason to doubt the distance, just naturally skeptical of my ability to demonstrate any significant athletic improvement Smile.  It’s around the football field at a pretty big high school with lights and goalposts and hurdles and everything, so I’m thinking it’s an official track.

         

         

        “shoes don't count this much.”

         

        I was just going for a cheap “must be the shoes” joke.  Probably more for my benefit than anyone else’s .

         

         

        “if you want a comparison: I may be able to run a 6min mile but not yet longer than that at that pace, definitely not yet 5K. 180-age pace is around 9:40.

         

        good luck to the races etc.!”

         

        I should do a true MAF test now that I have found a track (and maybe I’ll measure it first just to be sure...).  When I refer to my MAF pace, I'm using an average pace for ~6 miles on a route with some elevation changes.  I suspect that for a 3 mile track test I would be in the low 9’s now (this morning for example I did my first 3 MAF miles at 8:53 - but it's net downhill by 132 feet).  I’m not sure what I’ll be able to hold for the 5K – yesterday’s workout was 3 miles at 6:00 pace with an easy lap in between each mile.  I *think* I could have maintained 6:00 pace consecutively (the 12th lap *was* kind of tough) but I’m hoping that worst case I’m near 6:30 and at least have a shot at breaking 20:00.

         

        Next update I'll report my actual personal best mile, 5K time and true MAF test results.

         

        -tortoise88

          Great job tortoise on the improvement in MAF pace from 13:00 to 10:00!  I predict that your true MAF test on a track is going to yield more like 8:15-8:30 on a cool day.  We are at about the same 5K ability (I recently ran a 20:42 but went out too slow, current ability more like 20:00) and my best two 3 mile MAF runs on a relatively flat course have been 8:20.  I have never attempted a PR for a standalone mile, but ran 6:12 at the end of that 5K when I was trying to make up ground, so sub 6:00 would definitely be doable, 5:30...maybe, but I don't feel like trying Cool

           

          Thanks for sharing and keep us posted on the progress!

          Eric

           

          PRs:  5k - (20:42) 3/9/2013 18:55 (9/28/13)

                     10k - (42:42) 3/23/2013 39:11 (10/26/13) course was short @ 6.0 mi :)

                     10 mi - (1:12:10) 4/6/2013

                     HM - (1:34:38) 4/27/2013

          tortoise88


            Bad news:  i think the track really might be short.  My GPS watch registered .90 miles after 4 full laps.  I was thinking maybe the watch would tend to be inaccurate on the low side because around the bends it might "cut the corner" if you will so I looked at a satellite image and made some crude measurements and came up with about the same thing.  I emailed the high school track coach to see if they had an accurate measurement (no response yet) but I think I'll buy a measuring wheel and determine for myself exactly how far it is, and which lane I need to be in to make it a full 400m lap.

             

            I did run 4 laps in 5:19 this morning but if it's really only .90 miles, then that translates to about 5:55 for a full mile:  still very good for me but nowhere near as exciting!  And probably means I won't be breaking 20 minutes in the 5K, at least not at this point.  Shoot!

             

            Please note that the enthusiasm I expressed in previous posts should be modulated down by 10%.  Thank you.  Also, never assume, because you might be hella wrong.  And measure twice, cut once.  And if you walk a mile in another man's shoes, make sure it's not at my high school's track.

             

            -tortoise88

              Please note that the enthusiasm I expressed in previous posts should be modulated down by 10%.  Thank you.  

               

              This made me LOL.

              Eric

               

              PRs:  5k - (20:42) 3/9/2013 18:55 (9/28/13)

                         10k - (42:42) 3/23/2013 39:11 (10/26/13) course was short @ 6.0 mi :)

                         10 mi - (1:12:10) 4/6/2013

                         HM - (1:34:38) 4/27/2013

              tortoise88


                It gets even worse:  the coach just replied and said the track is about 330m around (!).  So, yeah - my GPS watch was wrong alright:  it OVERestimated the distance, not UNDERestimated it.  The 5:19 I thought I ran extrapolates to about 6:30.  The track isn't short so much as it is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DISTANCE.  Oy.

                 

                This makes a lot more sense, obviously, but is certainly disappointing and a little embarrassing - for the moron who built a 330m long track, that is.  Joking

                 

                Okay, at least I know my MAF improvement is still real...I think....

                 

                -tortoise88

                  I was just going for a cheap “must be the shoes” joke.  Probably more for my benefit than anyone else’s

                   

                  hey hehe I get it now. Smile and, your other jokes in this thread made me really laugh. Smile

                   

                   

                  It gets even worse:  the coach just replied and said the track is about 330m around (!).  So, yeah - my GPS watch was wrong alright:  it OVERestimated the distance, not UNDERestimated it.  The 5:19 I thought I ran extrapolates to about 6:30.  The track isn't short so much as it is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DISTANCE.  Oy.

                   

                  This makes a lot more sense, obviously, but is certainly disappointing and a little embarrassing - for the moron who built a 330m long track, that is.  Joking

                   

                  Okay, at least I know my MAF improvement is still real...I think....

                   

                  wow that was indeed a moron. why bother with building a nonstandard track?!

                   

                  btw the track I do my workouts on is also around a football field and is also nonstandard - it's a bit longer than the standard.

                   

                  the gps for me also overestimates distances on tracks. it usually thinks the curve is larger than the actual one. though with garmin 305, if I had the watch on the wrist that was closer to the inner curve then it got it right. but garmin 910xt no good, it measures too long even with that trick. Sad

                   

                  anyway, if I do mile repeats (or similar), I do them at 10K pace... I'm not good at doing really hard intervals, at least I race better than that, and that's what matters anyway. Smile so anyway, you might be looking at 45min 10k?! and to extrapolate 5k from that, between 21:30-22:00? sounds like improvement not only for MAF pace but for 5K pace then.

                   

                  btw, are you female? (guessing from the having baby time part Smile )

                   

                  another question out of curiosity, what's your mileage with this 5K plan + LHR? and before starting on the 5K plan?

                  tortoise88


                    Hi cmon2:

                     

                    Not female, just one of those new age husbands who helps with the kids.  I found it very easy to give up running for another precious hour of sleep each night....

                     

                    Mileage is between 35-40 per week, same with speedwork.

                     

                    For some reason 10K's don't interest me.  For one thing that's over 20 minutes less sleep that day Big grin.

                     

                    -tortoise88

                      Hi cmon2:

                       

                      Not female, just one of those new age husbands who helps with the kids.  I found it very easy to give up running for another precious hour of sleep each night....

                       

                      Mileage is between 35-40 per week, same with speedwork.

                       

                      For some reason 10K's don't interest me.  For one thing that's over 20 minutes less sleep that day Big grin.

                       

                      -tortoise88

                       

                      ah, I see, nice new age. Cool

                       

                      wow funny reason for not being interested in 10K's. Big grin

                      tortoise88


                        So, the infamous track actually measures 375 yards (actually longer by a foot but I “rounded down” to account for the deviation between a theoretically straight line and whatever path my measuring wheel actually took, despite my best efforts).  I worked out that the third lane ends up being a little easier to convert because a mile ends up being almost exactly 4.5 laps in that lane.

                         

                        The big news is that in the last week or so my MAF pace has really picked up.  I still haven’t done a true MAF test, but on Sunday I ran two hours and the first hour I averaged 8:50.  On this particular route, my previous best MAF pace was 9:20.  The first mile was 8:12, though it’s net downhill by 90 feet.  One thing that was introduced in my 5K training plan in the last 2-3 weeks is intervals, specifically 24 cycles of 30sec sprint/30 second rest.  I’ve done that twice.  The first time, I was ready to quit after 2 cycles.  The second time I did them it was much more manageable.  Before I started Maffetone training, HIIT was what got me down to 22:30 as a PB, from mid-23’s, so I’m inclined to credit it for the jump in improvement.

                         

                        First race is in 2 weeks! I’m not tapering for it since my training plan still has 4 weeks or so left.  I’ll just be using it as a “practice” run.  Perhaps I’ll have some of my own data to add to the MAF pace as race pace indicator thread Smile.

                         

                        -tortoise88

                          So, the infamous track actually measures 375 yards (actually longer by a foot but I “rounded down” to account for the deviation between a theoretically straight line and whatever path my measuring wheel actually took, despite my best efforts).  I worked out that the third lane ends up being a little easier to convert because a mile ends up being almost exactly 4.5 laps in that lane.

                           

                          The big news is that in the last week or so my MAF pace has really picked up.  I still haven’t done a true MAF test, but on Sunday I ran two hours and the first hour I averaged 8:50.  On this particular route, my previous best MAF pace was 9:20.  The first mile was 8:12, though it’s net downhill by 90 feet.  One thing that was introduced in my 5K training plan in the last 2-3 weeks is intervals, specifically 24 cycles of 30sec sprint/30 second rest.  I’ve done that twice.  The first time, I was ready to quit after 2 cycles.  The second time I did them it was much more manageable.  Before I started Maffetone training, HIIT was what got me down to 22:30 as a PB, from mid-23’s, so I’m inclined to credit it for the jump in improvement.

                           

                          First race is in 2 weeks! I’m not tapering for it since my training plan still has 4 weeks or so left.  I’ll just be using it as a “practice” run.  Perhaps I’ll have some of my own data to add to the MAF pace as race pace indicator thread Smile.

                           

                          -tortoise88

                           

                          ah so you measured it at ~340m. any reason as to why not trust the coach's judgement of it being 330m? but yeah not a big difference there

                           

                          also...where did you get a measuring wheel? sounds crazy lol Cool (...or do you just mean using a bike?)

                           

                          congrats on the improvements! yes interval training does often help with MAF pace too. for a while anyway Smile

                           

                          good luck to the race!

                          tortoise88


                            Well, I'm an engineer so I wanted to see for myself anyway, but the coach said "about" 330m and I figured they probably don't care how far a lap is exactly because there aren't any 330m races.  So it warranted further examination.

                             

                            I bought the measuring wheel at Home Depot (hardware

                            superstore in the states).  If I never use it again it will at least be an educational toy for my kids ("dad, how far is it around the world?" "Here - you tell me")

                             

                            My Tuesday workout called for 3 miles at 5k pace with rest between each mile but I decided to do them all in a row just for fun.  20:45.  I didn't try to go all out but I wasn't dogging it either.  I think I'll be happy if I break 21 this year.

                             

                            -tortoise88

                            tortoise88


                              I had been gearing up for a race this Saturday, then I was going to take it easy for a couple months to allow my body to generally recover from a stressful 12 weeks of 5K training, then start a new 5K training phase later in the summer and go for a personal best 5K in the fall.

                               

                              Well, my recuperation period may be starting early.  At the end of my 5/4 race, my right hammy started feeling tight (one reason I held back on a spirited "kick").  The next time I ran was the following Tuesday, a scheduled 30 cycles of 30-seconds on/off hard pace:  I felt fine for the first 20 then the hammy started getting tight so I stopped.  The next day I went for an easy MAF run and aborted after 1 minute because it was too sore to run on.  Didn't run again until Friday when it was a little sore but felt fine after warming up and did a 60-minute MAF-pace run.  Then on Saturday I did a 45-minute tempo run, also a little sore at first but once I warmed up it felt fine.  This morning my training plan called for 2 miles at 5K pace with a rest between each mile.  I didn't finish the first mile because the hamstring started to really tighten and I called off mile 2.  Throughout all of this the hamstring has felt tight and sore when I walk and I have tried to stretch daily.

                               

                              This is the first time I've ever injured my hamstring.  I suspect that it's a minor strain, but my gut feel is that even if I completely rest from now until Saturday, I''ll end up injuring it more seriously if I try to race on it.  At this point I'm inclined to forgo the race and play it conservatively, maybe take 2 full weeks off and then try to resume LHR training exclusively for a few weeks assuming that intensity level is low enough that the hamstring can effectively heal.  What will probably happen is that it starts to feel better by Friday and I go to the race, but plan to take it easy if I feel it start to act up.  I paid my entrance fee, I may as well go and get my T-shirt!

                               

                              -tortoise88

                                I had been gearing up for a race this Saturday, then I was going to take it easy for a couple months to allow my body to generally recover from a stressful 12 weeks of 5K training, then start a new 5K training phase later in the summer and go for a personal best 5K in the fall.

                                 

                                Well, my recuperation period may be starting early.  At the end of my 5/4 race, my right hammy started feeling tight (one reason I held back on a spirited "kick").  The next time I ran was the following Tuesday, a scheduled 30 cycles of 30-seconds on/off hard pace:  I felt fine for the first 20 then the hammy started getting tight so I stopped.  The next day I went for an easy MAF run and aborted after 1 minute because it was too sore to run on.  Didn't run again until Friday when it was a little sore but felt fine after warming up and did a 60-minute MAF-pace run.  Then on Saturday I did a 45-minute tempo run, also a little sore at first but once I warmed up it felt fine.  This morning my training plan called for 2 miles at 5K pace with a rest between each mile.  I didn't finish the first mile because the hamstring started to really tighten and I called off mile 2.  Throughout all of this the hamstring has felt tight and sore when I walk and I have tried to stretch daily.

                                 

                                This is the first time I've ever injured my hamstring.  I suspect that it's a minor strain, but my gut feel is that even if I completely rest from now until Saturday, I''ll end up injuring it more seriously if I try to race on it.  At this point I'm inclined to forgo the race and play it conservatively, maybe take 2 full weeks off and then try to resume LHR training exclusively for a few weeks assuming that intensity level is low enough that the hamstring can effectively heal.  What will probably happen is that it starts to feel better by Friday and I go to the race, but plan to take it easy if I feel it start to act up.  I paid my entrance fee, I may as well go and get my T-shirt!

                                 

                                -tortoise88

                                 

                                Heal! Heal! Heal! (my hands are outstretched and pointing at you)

                                 

                                Just curious, how has your aerobic speed been doing the past 2-4 weeks?

                                Sometimes, a probable injury will show up in your aerobic speed first as regression, especially during hard anaerobic training like this. And sometimes, these things just come out of nowhere.

                                 

                                Again:  Heal! Heal! Heal! (my hands are still outstretched and pointing at you)

                                Get better, T. Cool

                                log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #143

                                 

                                12