Low HR Training

1

My 12 week MAF report (sorry - long) (Read 509 times)

    I’ve been diligently training below MAF for 12 weeks, where I’ve kept my HR average at 128 or129 for virtually all my runs (180 – age – 5). I took an extra 5 beats off due to an ITBS problem that I’ve had trouble shaking. Virtually every mile of every run was at 128 or 129 average with maxes of 132-134. I didn’t eat at least 2.5 hours before every run. The good news is that I have gone from a sometimes painful 20-24 miles/week to a relatively pain free 40 miles last week with a conservative progression including recovery weeks. I also have not been sick during this time (may or may not be relevant). Without any further information, the above indicates to me that the program has done me good. I am disappointed in my improvement level, however. My mid-day 5 mile runs began in the neighborhood of 11:40/mile, and haven’t changed over the 12 weeks. There is some variance from run to run, but no real slope of the curve. Also, my early morning medium long run went from about 11:00/mile to about 11:20/mile to about 11:00/mile through the 12 weeks. One bright spot is that my weekly long runs have gone from about 12:00/mile to about 11:40/mile even with the length of the run increasing – the flattening occurring in the second half miles. Perhaps my expectations were too high, but expected to drop at least 30-45 seconds/mile for all the above runs (and my hope was for much more). Another good result was that I proved to myself that I had the patience to run at the above slow paces. Before this experiment I had never run a mile slower than about 10:00/mile (and never slower than 9:00/mile if it wasn’t a recovery run). I know now that I can force myself to hold back during training. I have to admit that this was what dieting must feel like – always having to control the urge to quit the program/fall off the wagon. I treated myself to a fun run today where I disabled the HR alarm and never looked at my HR (I missed how fun that could be – I felt like a giddy little girl). I went out at what I used to call a “recovery” run pace and kept my breathing no faster than 3-4 steps in and 3-4 steps out, which is recommended in Jack Daniels’ book. Interestingly, my pace accelerated throughout the run (which is typical for me – I’ll have to control that in the future) and my HR climbed throughout the run, but after downloading my Garmin 305 graphs I noticed that my HR was very smooth compared to jerky graph of any of my runs in the previous weeks. Also over the last 2-3 miles my max was just a couple beats above my ave. For the future, I plan on raising my target 5 and then probably 10 beats starting with my shorter runs (moving up the toothpaste tube). I’m going to add some faster hill runs with very slow running recoveries. I also want to add some tempo runs which I can use to directly compare against the condition I was in before MAF training (I have no recent races). I know the above may not meet with approval by many here, but I’ve got to get back to the joy. Thanks for listening.

    ScriptCal

    BeeRunB


      You've made progress the past 12 weeks. Look at your pain-free volume. Also, your MAF curve is normal. For me, I went in reverse for awhile, then it turned around. Like your 11:00-11:20-11:00. You are just about to start seeing real progress, especially now that your are passing 40 per week.. Consider going a little longer to see what happens. An aerobic system takes time to build. Congrats on a solid 12 weeks. --Jimmy
        Hi ScriptCal, I enjoyed reading about your experience with MAF. It sounds very similar to mine. In fact, a lot about your running experience is similar to me. I ran in high school, and some in my 20s and now I have the passion back for it. I am in my late 40s. I just started Maffing in Dec 07. But, last year I did similar kind of workouts like you did where I was running everything at harder paces. The result is that I did improve, but almost any running you do will help you improve. But, I was always sore, getting injured, and actually dreading running sometimes. And I could not cover much distance. So, I thought I was going for "quality" versus "quantity". If I can't cover a lot of distance, then I might as well work the distance hard that I could cover. Time for me was and is also an issue. Then I started searching the web for information, and ended up here. I knew the day I started using this method, it was for me. The first two months were very frustrating. I would just get into a nice running rithym and groove and that darn HR alarm would go off, and then I would slow down. This happened over and over. At the indoor track, I ran on, I used to get lapped by everybody all the time. I had a hard time controlling HR and going so much slower. But, afterwards, I would always feel so good. I knew this was good for me. I knew that I could always get the speed back later. As Jimmy has pointed out, in my case, that this is for the long term. You have years to improve. I like the idea that I am doing something that will continually benefit me for years. So, today, my MAF pace has improved. I kept lousy records when I first started, so I am not sure by how much. It might be about 45 seconds. So, it did not feel very significant. But, more significantly, I hardly ever set the alarm off any more, and it does not drift near as much. The HR used to climb very steeply with each mile. Now it drifts a lot less. The biggest benefit to me though, is the lack of injury, and the lack of soreness, and the fact that I just look forward to my runs, and I can cover more distance now. I am doing long runs of 7 miles now. Last year, the longest run I could do was about 4 miles. I have had times where my MAF pace seems to have improved and then regressed. It appears to have leveled out. With some of the warm weather we have gotten recently, I have had a hard time controlling HR and I was back to setting the alarm off. It was very discouraging because I felt like I had regressed. But, reading about peoples experience, this is normal with the warmer weather. Good Luck
          One other thing. I also missed going faster. I recently started to indulge by running a race and doing some anaerobic. I would bet that your faster run that you just did, coming off of all that MAF probably felt great. I also see that you have increased your mileage by a lot using MAF. Thats great. I was ready to ditch MAF a few weeks ago. But I decided to compromise, after consulting this board. I decided to continue MAF indefinitely, but at the same time, run a race every once in a while. And just to monitor things, and see how that goes. It seems like some people, when they have started to add more anaerobic running in, have actually improved their MAF pace. Based on the advice I have gotten, it appears that you have gotten a good 12 week base in, and that adding higher paced running is OK. It just depends on what your goals are. I thought Jimmys advice sounded good. Now that you have passed 40 mpw, why not give it a little more time, and see what happens. Good luck and congratulations on getting to 40mpw and sticking with it the way you have.
            If running can teach one virtue, it's patience. Patience on a long run. Patience in training. "It's a marathon, not a sprint" is the adage. In 12 weeks you've nearly doubled your mileage w/o injury. That's a huge accomplishment. I speak from experience when I say: Do not underestimate the benefits of health. You want to talk slow? Try that first run back after 6 weeks on the shelf. If you're going to throw in some faster runs, be smart about it. I'm not sure if it's an issue for you, but remember that temperatures are increasing, which will lead to slower paces at the same HR. Sucks now, but when it cools off again it's like a windfall.
              I’ve been diligently training below MAF for 12 weeks, where I’ve kept my HR average at 128 or129 for virtually all my runs (180 – age – 5). I took an extra 5 beats off due to an ITBS problem that I’ve had trouble shaking. Virtually every mile of every run was at 128 or 129 average with maxes of 132-134. I didn’t eat at least 2.5 hours before every run. The good news is that I have gone from a sometimes painful 20-24 miles/week to a relatively pain free 40 miles last week with a conservative progression including recovery weeks. I also have not been sick during this time (may or may not be relevant). Without any further information, the above indicates to me that the program has done me good. I am disappointed in my improvement level, however. My mid-day 5 mile runs began in the neighborhood of 11:40/mile, and haven’t changed over the 12 weeks. There is some variance from run to run, but no real slope of the curve. Also, my early morning medium long run went from about 11:00/mile to about 11:20/mile to about 11:00/mile through the 12 weeks. One bright spot is that my weekly long runs have gone from about 12:00/mile to about 11:40/mile even with the length of the run increasing – the flattening occurring in the second half miles. Perhaps my expectations were too high, but expected to drop at least 30-45 seconds/mile for all the above runs (and my hope was for much more). Another good result was that I proved to myself that I had the patience to run at the above slow paces. Before this experiment I had never run a mile slower than about 10:00/mile (and never slower than 9:00/mile if it wasn’t a recovery run). I know now that I can force myself to hold back during training. I have to admit that this was what dieting must feel like – always having to control the urge to quit the program/fall off the wagon. I treated myself to a fun run today where I disabled the HR alarm and never looked at my HR (I missed how fun that could be – I felt like a giddy little girl). I went out at what I used to call a “recovery” run pace and kept my breathing no faster than 3-4 steps in and 3-4 steps out, which is recommended in Jack Daniels’ book. Interestingly, my pace accelerated throughout the run (which is typical for me – I’ll have to control that in the future) and my HR climbed throughout the run, but after downloading my Garmin 305 graphs I noticed that my HR was very smooth compared to jerky graph of any of my runs in the previous weeks. Also over the last 2-3 miles my max was just a couple beats above my ave. For the future, I plan on raising my target 5 and then probably 10 beats starting with my shorter runs (moving up the toothpaste tube). I’m going to add some faster hill runs with very slow running recoveries. I also want to add some tempo runs which I can use to directly compare against the condition I was in before MAF training (I have no recent races). I know the above may not meet with approval by many here, but I’ve got to get back to the joy. Thanks for listening.
              I agree with Jimmy that you have probably made more progress than you realize. Also keep in mind that some people may or may not "gain" a lot in as far as pure training times go. If you are aerobically strong before running at a lower HR, then your gains will be modest. You will, however, likely be able (as you have seen) to increase mileage much easier, and stay healthier in the mean time. This alone allows for much improvement, especially when training for longer distance races. Smile
                Thank you all for reading and commenting - I really appreciate it. I don't plan on giving up low HR training because with my injury background it'd be foolish to go back to what caused the problem in the first place. I do have to make a change however. If I continue at the pace I've been, I will lose interest in training all together. If it becomes drudgery, I won't continue. The only thing keeping me going during the last three weeks or so is in knowing that the end was in sight. I'm very glad I did the 12 week experiment. I will now bump my training HR 5 beats (which, keep in mind for me puts me right at 180 - age), and enjoy myself at a pace that would have seemed unbearable to me before I started. What little disadvantage I'll get from the faster pace will be way more than offset by restoring my desire to train. The only question mark would be my adding tempo runs. I feel I need to do this to determine what race condition I am now in. I'll be conservative, but I can't "feel" a pace without some faster running experience. I think once a week of 2-5 miles at a guesstimate 1 hour race should not cause me harm. I am anxious to try a 10K in about 6 weeks or so and wouldn't feel comfortable running without some of the above tests. Thanks again,

                ScriptCal

                  I noticed that we run approximately the same MAF pace, so I know how slow it must feel to you. But, it finally is just fast enough so that I feel like I am running and not "creeping" as someone had termed it <which>. I also noticed that we are about the same age, so our MAF HR is about the same. But, what is different is that it looks like you have been running longer and it also looks like you run better times than I do. Which means that your MAF pace is relatively slow right now. Your case just reminds me of some things I read in Jesse's FAQ. He said something to the affect that the people who would most benefit from this training are the same people who will be the most frustrated by it early on and who also may have to do it longer to see the benefits. According to the tables that attempt to correlate MAF pace to 5k race times, my current MAF pace has me running about a 25:30 minute 5k. But, I run about 23 minute 5k, so I look at it like if I ever got my MAF pace to about 10 minute miles, that would perhaps be a good indication that my aerobic system is much better develped. In other words, I still have the potential to rely on my aerobic system more, which in turn, would mean that I would run more efficiently, and put less stress on my body. But, as Jimmy has pointed out, this is something that takes a long time to develop. I have included this table that Jimmy came up with a while ago. MAF....5k pace....5k time.....Marathon.....Mpace 13:00...9:00.........27:57..........4:32:29.......10:25 12:30...8:45.........27:11..........4:25:00.......10:07 12:00...8:30.........26:23..........4:17:12.........9:50 11:30...8:15.........25:37..........4:09:44.........9:32 11:00...8:00.........24:51..........4:02:15.........9:15 10:30..7:45..........24:04..........3:54:37.........8:58 10:00..7:30..........23:18..........3:47:09...........8:41 9:30....7:15..........22:31..........3:39:31...........8:23 9:00....7:00..........21:45..........3:32:02...........8:06 8:30....6:45..........20:58..........3:24:24...........7:49 8:00....6:30..........20:12..........3:16:55...........7:31 7:30....6:00..........18:38..........3:01:39...........6:56 7:00....5:30..........17:05..........2:46:32...........6:22 6:30....5:15..........16:19..........2:39:04...........6:05 6:00....5:00..........15:32..........2:31:26...........5:47 5:45....4:45..........14:45..........2:23:48...........5:30 5:30....4:30..........13:59..........2:16:19...........5:12 5:15....4:20..........13:28..........2:11:17...........5:01 5:00....4:15..........13:12....... ..2:08:41...........4:55 I know that this chart is not perfect, but I like it because it just gives you an idea of how to relate MAF pace to your race pace. The other thought I had is that since you have been running longer, maybe your MAF HR should be set higher. But, you have not been injury free, etc. so maybe it is correct. Who knows. The only other thing I noticed is that you have run everything at almost the exact same HR for 13 weeks straight. The only way I could keep sane during the early stages was to change it around a bit. Run some MAF intervals. Run some at a lower HR. Run some right at MAFr. The big thing Jesse recommends is a lot of down hill running. He seemed to consider that important for improving MAF pace. In the end, though, we are all different and what works for one may not be just right for another. So, the other advice I have seen a lot here is that sometimes you just have to experiment. And sometimes we may need more than one attempt for it to kick in. For myself, I am going to continue doing MAF type training and see where it goes. Even if my MAF pace never got much better, all of the other benfits it has for me, make it the right thing for me. I have also heard that you see better results to MAF pace when you do higher mileage. You finally just got there, so perhaps you will see the benefits to pace soon. I am still working on getting my mileage up. Although I am running slow, and hardly breathing and hardly sweating, I know that I am really focusing on the aerobic system because my legs still get fatigued. In fact, if I go faster it actually feels easier, but I sense that it is because I am allowing my well developed anaerobic system to kick in and assist a lot more. So, I sort of look at it like I am a weight lifter who is just focusing on a certain set of muscles right now. Good luck.</which>
                    I noticed that we run approximately the same MAF pace, so I know how slow it must feel to you. But, it finally is just fast enough so that I feel like I am running and not "creeping" as someone had termed it (which made me laugh, because that is a good description of how it first felt). I also noticed that we are about the same age, so our MAF HR is about the same. But, what is different is that it looks like you have been running longer and it also looks like you run better times than I do. Which means that your MAF pace is relatively slow right now. Your case just reminds me of some things I read in Jesse's FAQ. He said something to the affect that the people who would most benefit from this training are the same people who will be the most frustrated by it early on and who also may have to do it longer to see the benefits. ... Although I am running slow, and hardly breathing and hardly sweating, I know that I am really focusing on the aerobic system because my legs still get fatigued. In fact, if I go faster it actually feels easier, but I sense that it is because I am allowing my well developed anaerobic system to kick in and assist a lot more. So, I sort of look at it like I am a weight lifter who is just focusing on a certain set of muscles right now.
                    Run48, I looked at your log, and you're right that we are very close in age and MAF pace. I completely concur with your last paragraph about fatigue only in the legs. My theory was that it is the result of using leg muscle parts that aren't used in faster running etc. (just a theory). It's much too early for me to tell, but after a couple of runs at my old MAF+5 I'm feeling like a new runner (or: at last a runner). Only now do I feel like I'm not creeping and I don't struggle with (curse at) keeping my HR alarm silent. I still feel as fresh as before and psychologically I'm much happier. If I have any results down the road, I'll be sure to share. Please do the same for me... Thanks,

                    ScriptCal

                      I know that what I am doing now is good (MAF training) and will eventually get me to the next step. I have been browsing the web and have heard people talk about Hadd training. I finally looked deeper into it and have to admit it sounds intriguiing. Below is a link to the famous Hadd article that people refer to. It is a little long winded, but the bottom line is that his training sounds so much in line with MAF. The only difference I see is that he advocates running at 70 percent HRmax vs 180-age. But, for me they are the same anyway. So, that is cool. But, I really liked the sound of what he advocates as the next step. Mixing in twice a week some low level lactate runs. Running at approximately 80 percent HRmax for a certain percentage of a run. What I like about it, is that he emphasizes maintaining that base with the rest of the runs, and just twice a week running a little faster to push lactate threshold higher. Of course, he only says to get to this next stage once you have had a good base, and your mileage is up. Here is the link: http://www.electricblues.com/Hadd.doc


                      Forever Learning

                        ScriptCal, I had similar results from my less scientific HADD/MAF program last Summer (mine was more like 8-9 weeks). Hoping for 30-45 sec/mile and achieved far less if any improvement in pace. One thing to consider is the typical temp/humidity during these 12 weeks. Seeing parts of the US are now into the heat of mid Spring it might be a factor. Best of luck!