Low HR Training

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musings on MAF HR (Read 1387 times)

    I really enjoyed reading this thread again, and with the new additions.

     

    My MAF HR is 132.  I am 52 years old.  Just turned 52, so I just lost another beat Undecided   I started with this HR about 3 years ago, and have stuck with it, based on the fact that I have progressed, so you get to keep it for a few years, if that is so.  Even if I did not keep it, I probably could use +5 and be at about the same HR anyway.

     

    Everything that was described as far as subjective feelings feels accurate with my current MAF HR.  It is also the HR I have to run at for recovery.  It definitely correlates to my recovery HR.  There are times where I am doing a recovery run where I find a pace that feels correct, and any pace above it feels very difficult.  If I then check my HR, I am at or just a bit below my MAF HR.

     

    I am currently in my base phase, and have decided to stick to the MAF pace or perhaps a few beats above MAF pace for most of my running.  Last week, I went well above MAF pace on a run, and I paid for it the next few days.  I want to get my miles up and get to the point I can do it easily at MAF, and then perhaps I will start mixing in some higher paced (MEP?) runs.

      I really enjoyed reading this thread again, and with the new additions.

       

      My MAF HR is 132.  I am 52 years old.  Just turned 52, so I just lost another beat Undecided   I started with this HR about 3 years ago, and have stuck with it, based on the fact that I have progressed, so you get to keep it for a few years, if that is so.  Even if I did not keep it, I probably could use +5 and be at about the same HR anyway.

       

      Everything that was described as far as subjective feelings feels accurate with my current MAF HR.  It is also the HR I have to run at for recovery.  It definitely correlates to my recovery HR.  There are times where I am doing a recovery run where I find a pace that feels correct, and any pace above it feels very difficult.  If I then check my HR, I am at or just a bit below my MAF HR.

       

      I am currently in my base phase, and have decided to stick to the MAF pace or perhaps a few beats above MAF pace for most of my running.  Last week, I went well above MAF pace on a run, and I paid for it the next few days.  I want to get my miles up and get to the point I can do it easily at MAF, and then perhaps I will start mixing in some higher paced (MEP?) runs.

       

      thanks. Smile curiosity, how much higher did you let the HR go when you paid for it (i.e. it was too hard)?

        thanks. Smile curiosity, how much higher did you let the HR go when you paid for it (i.e. it was too hard)?

         Last week I had a run where I let the HR get into the 140s  (close to 80% max HR) in the last couple of miles.  That normally would be fine and not a problem, but I am building mileage up now.  So, increasing mileage and running above MAF was too much for me last week.  So, while I am building mileage up, I think keeping to MAF is the wise thing.

          time for me to revive this thread. Smile new musings!!! Cool

           

          I don't want to open another thread just for this.

           

           

          in general, I'd like to know how maff intensity and/or sub-maff intensity relates to recovery in general for other people. I've been thinking of the topic of recovery a lot, lately. because, I've been running a lot this winter, while paying close attention to my ability to handle a given load including my recovery (fun stuff!) and I found the following.

           

           

          below is what I noticed. you can skip this part (in italic) if you find it too boring, and just read the last two sections instead. Smile

           

          if I was running everything between 156-162bpm then I felt invincible, even at a quite high mileage(higher than ever for me before), as long as I didn't add higher intensity runs. if I did add just one such run, I felt I was getting a bit close to overload. not overloaded yet but a bit too close for my liking. after such a harder run if I did a few days of running at 156-162 I was back to normal. especially if I didn't go past 160 or so.

          however, if I was only running at this intensity and no higher, then I would recover from these runs pretty quick, and I felt very good all the time. very addictive runs. the most addictive intensity for me. I also saw progress in pace.

           

          if I was running everything at around 153bpm and sometimes a couple of higher intensity runs, I felt just fine. this 153bpm always feels easy to handle even the days after the harder run days. it doesn't seem to take me to the overload point, keeps me below and it helps a lot with recovery. it feels like I could do as much at this intensity as I like, doubles too. I would say 153-154bpm is around the top part (ceiling) of my recovery intensity. my pace does not seem to slow much at this HR, but it does slow a bit if I go between 156-162.

           

          if I was running a bit above 160-162 bpm, say, 165-170bpm, then it still felt very easy but I felt I could not do that 7 days a week without a little breaking down. a few times a week this intensity was just fine. maybe every second day, but not everyday.

           

          otoh, 156-162 is just fine for everyday, the recovery from it takes a bit less than a full day meaning it's possible to do double runs at this intensity - but not everyday doubles. everyday doubles seemed a bit too much.

           

          and then around 175bpm I feel like I've switched to using a lot of carbs for fuel. I can run at this 175 for quite long hours, it is way below my anaerobic threshold, quite a bit slower than my half marathon pace, I just don't like it as much as the more fat burning runs. to be honest I much prefer the lower intensity runs, they feel so comfortable and addictive, in an interesting way.

          on the other hand, those high carb burning runs don't feel addictive to me. for some reason if I do too many of them that will kill the desire to run. here's an interesting analogy, I don't truly like running at 175 just like I don't like eating chocolate much :P (really!)

          still, a couple of times a week I'm okay with predominantly carb burning intensity i.e. past 175. I can take that much mentally if needed. also, I'm not sure how well I would recover if I did more than 2 of these a week because I never tried that. 2 a week is okay though...

           

           

          153 is supposedly MAF+5 for me if I take 5beats off for not running for more than 2 years.

          I wonder if for you all, the calculated MAFHR is recovery intensity or it is a bit higher than recovery intensity or is it below it? I'm curious to see if there is invididual variability. 

           

          note, recovery intensity is defined as something you can keep doing all day and the intensity that helps recovery from harder runs because it will not take any more of your energy, it will instead lend you more energy and makes you fresh for those harder runs.

           

          I'm so confused. Cool

          Help me, C. Help me.

          I have no idea what this is about.

           

          --Jimmy

             Last week I had a run where I let the HR get into the 140s  (close to 80% max HR) in the last couple of miles.  That normally would be fine and not a problem, but I am building mileage up now.  So, increasing mileage and running above MAF was too much for me last week.  So, while I am building mileage up, I think keeping to MAF is the wise thing.

             

            yeah, when running high mileage, you first have to have a base of only low HR runs for that mileage before adding higher HR runs. (by high mileage I mean a mileage that the person never ran before)

              I'm so confused. Cool

              Help me, C. Help me.

              I have no idea what this is about.

               

              --Jimmy

               

               

              hehe I did say no need to read the italic part. that was musings about my experiences from my winter base building relating to HR zones and recovery. Smile

               

              the main question was what is your HR/HR zone that you call your recovery HR. and how it relates to MAFHR. at MAFHR, below it or above it?

               

              (at the end of that long post I did provide a definition of recovery for this purpose)

                hehe I did say no need to read the italic part. that was musings about my experiences from my winter base building relating to HR zones and recovery. Smile

                 

                the main question was what is your HR/HR zone that you call your recovery HR. and how it relates to MAFHR. at MAFHR, below it or above it?

                 

                (at the end of that long post I did provide a definition of recovery for this purpose)

                 

                If you're MAF training, it's always at or below your MAF. If your recovery HR is above MAF, then you've

                left The Maffetone Method behind, which kind of makes this investigation more

                on the specious side of things, and pretty much why I am still confused by this thread. I don't

                understand the point you are trying to make. I don't get what you're trying to get at or ascertain.

                 

                I'm so confused.

                 

                --JimmyCool

                  If you're MAF training, it's always at or below your MAF. If your recovery HR is above MAF, then you've

                  left The Maffetone Method behind, which kind of makes this investigation more

                  on the specious side of things, and pretty much why I am still confused by this thread. I don't

                  understand the point you are trying to make. I don't get what you're trying to get at or ascertain.

                   

                  I'm so confused.

                   

                  --JimmyCool

                   

                   

                  well, "at MAF" is not the same HR as "below MAF". so even if you are MAF training, I would hope that the question makes some sense. Smile

                   

                  I'm not trying to make any point, simply curious because I saw a few people posting that they do recovery at sub-MAF HR (such as MAF-5, MAF-10, MAF-20) rather than at MAF HR itself.

                    THis is what confuses me:

                     

                    "153 is supposedly MAF+5 for me if I take 5beats off for not running for more than 2 years.

                    I wonder if for you all, the calculated MAFHR is recovery intensity or it is a bit higher than recovery intensity or is it below it? I'm curious to see if there is invididual variability."

                     

                    The question is also followed and  qualified by your note (i.e. "recovery intensity is defined as something you can keep doing all day and the intensity that helps recovery from harder runs because it will not take any more of your energy, it will instead lend you more energy and makes you fresh for those harder runs") and the opening post of this thread which is partially about your subjective feelings at different HR's.

                     

                    Your question is asking if our MAF is recovery intensity, higher than recovery, or below it, NOT do we use  MAF, below MAF or above MAF as a recovery HR. This assumes that a person runs by a recovery intensity as defined in your note, or at the very least by a subjective recovery feeling.

                     

                    This is my confusion (I'm actually so confused about your question and this thread, I can hardly articulate why--LOL!Cool , but I'll try):

                     

                    Most anyone using a specific method of heart-rate training will be using a particular heart-rate for recovery runs, not a recovery intensity as you define. If you're Maffing, you are at MAF or below; if you're SLowBurning, you are in the MAP zone; if you're Hadding you are at or below one of those heart rates he gives for the different MHR's; if you're Pfitzing, you are using 70%HRR or below; if you're Heart Rate Training for The Compleat Idioting, then you're at 70% HRR and below.  A recovery parameter is specifically stated. The posters in this forum are mostly using MAF with some doing SlowBurn, Hadd, or Van Aaken. What the lurkers are using, I haven't a clue.

                     

                    So, most of us aren't going out there trying to figure the subjective feel of a recovery run. We're using the parameters set by the program, and just looking for some recovery from the hard day before, yet still get a little workout in. Adjustments are usually made to maximize recovery.

                     

                    It is not exactly clear what you are asking. You have NOT asked us what we do for recovery runs specifically. You have set up a whole thread about subjective feelings, and posted a note about what recovery intensity is, and asking how THAT relates to someone's MAF (if they don't MAF and have bothered to figure it out). I think.

                     

                    My ultimate confusion about this thread and many of your posts is what exactly are you trying to understand. You don't MAF train, and have stated that you don't feel any training load (I'm still confused about that) when running at MAF or below, but have a big interest in the MAF anyway. That's cool. Believe me. I'm open to the discussion. You seem to be trying to discover a relationship between the MAF and things like MHR, AT, subjective feelings, and other methods. You seem to be digging for something. Because I don't know exactly what that is, it is hard for me to move along with you. It is entirely possible that the reason it's hard for me are my own shortcomings. Having big feet doesn't mean a person is well-endowed in other areas, like his frontal lobes. There I go bragging about my big feet again. Roll eyes

                     

                    --Jimmy

                     

                    P.S. Did you get the Vinny Barbarino reference? (an example of the American TV mythology that we share here, though this one is a bit generational). Travolta will always be Vinny in my heart.

                      sorry for confusing you. yeah digging, a lot, as I just like to think about stuff. I want to get the big picture about everything. maxHR, AT/LT, MAF, vo2max... that's the something. Smile so, I've been learning a lot and that's fun. I hope it's ok if I ask stuff, etc.

                       

                      I have a lot of interest in low HR because I find the fat burning training important... well and because it just feels so good to train there, hehe. Cool yeah, I mostly like how there is no "load" when I run at low enough HR/intensity.

                       

                      what do you mean by being confused about what I said how I feel no training load?

                       

                      (sorry if I was not able to explain that too well, if you have any questions on it, just ask.)

                       

                      ok, about the topic... unless I'm missing something, Maffetone does not seem to specify a recovery intensity (or HR). this is what makes me interested.

                      so, in a way, I asked what you do for recovery, i.e. what HR your recovery HR is if you even use such a HR zone. if you even feel the need to do that sort of thing(recovery).
                       
                      note that this last post was not to do with the first post, but I didn't want to open a new thread and I thought it would sort of fit in this old thread of mine.


                      PS: I didn't get that reference, sadly (though I suspected it was to do with your TV stuff Smile ). but the video link was funny. Smile

                        MAF to MAF -10 is the aerobic training zone Dr. Phil prescribes. Recovery is a matter of duration and off days. The duration is completely up to you. Depends on what your body can handle and what your MAF tests are revealing. Someone elite like a Scott Jurek might find a two-hour run to be an easy day, but a beginner might have to do 20 minutes. In a base period there might be some that run the same duration every day and it works for them.

                         

                        During the anaerobic and racing phases, he prescribes easy MAF running, or an off day, for the days in between these hard workouts.

                         

                        It's like Jesse (FF) used to say about tapering. He almost always trained at or below MAF, and any anaerobic work would come from racing. He never felt he had to taper because the MAF base training he was doing never made him feel like he needed to taper. Others might have to taper because they add things like tempo runs and intervals.

                         

                        Dr. Phil's books aren't specific about training schedules, though he has offered samples to illustrate what different people have done. If you understand his periodization, the importance of the MAF test as a guide to training load, what over-training is, and  aerobic vs. anaerobic, then

                        what recovery for you  will be made clear as you use the program. And it is obvious that to him all recovery is either an off day, or run at MAF or below. Any form of anearobic work is always considered "hard" so-to-speak.

                         

                        Personally, I feel like I need an off day after a long-run, and need recovery run days after medium long ones. Even if I run a long run between MAF-20 and MAF, I can feel it in my body the next day, and complete rest is at hand. I run duration of an hour or less for recovery, generally about 50 minutes in average. Sometimes at MAF, somtimes at MAF -10, sometimes even lower.

                         

                        --Jimmy

                         

                        P.S. John Travolta (Pulp Fiction, Saturday Night Fever, Grease, etc.) came to fame as Vinny Barbarino on a show called Welcome Back, Kotter.

                         A funny show (for the first few seasons) with a terrific ensemble cast, and coming to TV with a bit of controversy due to it being about a racially mixed  class for underperforming outcasts and delinquents called The Sweathogs. Travolta became iconic with his "I'm so confused" and Vinny Barbarino's trademark mixture of conceit, airheadish stupidity, charming good-looks, and songs and dance honoring himself. Funny character.

                          Every training step you make adds to your training load whether it be walking or intervals. You might not feel training load (whatever that means), but that doesn't mean nothing is happening.

                            I hope it's ok if I ask stuff, etc.


                             

                            Absolutely!

                            You're more than welcome here in this forum. I enjoy your participation. I hope you enjoy it here. It's pretty polite here, with minimal hijacking,

                            and a heavy concentration on education, staying healthy, and getting better. I'm looking forward to when you finally stumble

                            on the theory of everything, Cmonstein. Cool

                             

                            --Jimmy

                              Every training step you make adds to your training load whether it be walking or intervals. You might not feel training load (whatever that means), but that doesn't mean nothing is happening.

                               

                              Jimmy

                               

                              I use a program called SportTracks to log and quantify my workouts. The program is set up to have other "plugin" program modules that are developed and maintained by other users and programmers. One of these "plugins" that I use on a daily basis is called "Training Load".

                               

                              In the Training Load plugin, the program uses your HR information, duration and activity to develope a Training Stress Score (TSS) and assigns a "TRIMP" number to your workout, then uses that to calculate the training stress and accumulation of fatigue (Cronic Training Load CTL).

                               

                              It also calculates a Training Stress Balance (a "Freshness" indicator) for before a workout and after the workout. I can look at this to see a quantification of the stresses my body is under and cross reference that with what I am ACTUALLY feeling before and after a workout. I can attest from using this program and plugin that your statement is absolutely spot on, every training step does affect your bodies traininig loads.

                               

                              The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                               

                              2014 Goals:

                               

                              Stay healthy

                              Enjoy life

                               

                                thanks for your reply Smile yeah it would be great to become Cmonstein and figure out the Grand Unified Theory of running. LOL. Cool

                                 

                                neat stuff about MAF as recovery in anaerobic phase, this is well in line with what I see as working for me. I mean, hard run... then low intensity runs to recover and this just so happens to be near the MAFHR (180-age, if I don't subtract 5bpm). maybe not coincidence.


                                I find it strange that a beginner would find a 20min MAF workout hard, but then who knows, maybe I just don't know anyone who's in such a bad shape except for people with serious illnesses.


                                as for MAF test as a guide to detection of over training. I found in the past (about 1 year ago) that there are signs that come on before the pace at low HR (such as MAFHR) will start to decline. this is why I've been thinking about this topic lately with all the higher mileage I've been doing.


                                I do have another question in mind specifically for you. I was looking through your MAF test log and at one point you had 141 as MAF then at another time 126. was 141 correlating with your recovery intensity then? if yes then that would be interesting info to me, as there is a 15bpm difference which is not small. could mean that being well trained can have such a big effect even on recovery HR. also, I'm asking about this because I haven't had a chance to know this from experience, you see Smile


                                about training load: sitting at my PC I still have my heart beating and my RQ is probably pretty low, that is, probably close to 0.70. does this count as training? Smile I don't think that training will elicit much improvement in pace if only working out below a "threshold" that could be MAF-10 or 50% vo2max or whatever. of course, it is not all black and white as it would still be useful for preparing your body for ultrarunning. so your average pace could actually improve for 100miles. (but I doubt it would improve for a "traditional" race distance as it would not be too specific training for that.)

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