Low HR Training

12

LT (lactate threshold) test vs MAF vs marathon vs whatever =) (Read 692 times)

    So, as I mentioned in another thread now... I've recently had a LT test done. It was pretty interesting and I thought I'd share stuff about it. Especially as I plan to once do the RQ test too and even jimmyb's test. Then I would have a pretty neat pile of data to analyse and compare =) Maybe it interests others too.

     

    The test was done on a treadmill in a really hot room... I'm pretty sure that affected my HR and I was overheating by the end. I'm told that the HR vs LT relationship doesn't change under such circumstances though. I hope so because just as I started warming up my HR was already 152. =)) The pace in such heat is of course supposed to decrease at LT or at any HR of course and as seen from the data, that clearly happened (7:25 pace is definitely slower than LT in a normal outdoors workout for me.)

     

    OK, so, they had me hold one specific speed for 4 minutes, then they took a drop of blood then they increased speed for another 4 minutes and so on. They did not attempt to take me to VO2max or anything, just taking me past LT. Results were interesting and quite some of it in line of what I've expected simply from observing myself and my training and races over the years.

     

    (I'm also happy to report that despite the heat, I was able to guess pretty accurately at my HR, as the HRM was not in sight of me, I was told of my HR only very occasionally during the test. My accuracy was off after passing 190 though, 199-200 only felt like 193 or so to me.)

     

    Raw data:

     

    (HR) - (lactate in mmol/l) - (pace on treadmill)

    165bpm - 1.3 - 9:39

    175bpm - 1.4 - 8:23
    189bpm - 4.1 - 7:25
    200bpm - 7.4 - 6:39

     

    I'm told my LT is around that value of 4, so around that 189-ish HR. That kind of matches with my guesses... I always thought it was around 190 or so.

     

    What I find interesting is that even though my HR went very high in the heat and I felt overheating, my breathing didn't increase that much, I mean I usually don't go all that crazy with my breathing anyway, but in this case it was really light, I opened my mouth a little bit for the last 1.5minutes of the last speed at HR=199bpm. (I did the rest with nose breathing as usual.) Oh I also observed how my muscles felt for another reference point =) At 189, it kind of felt like it always does at 189, so that's OK.

     

    So now I'm of course wondering if the 7.4 lactate (clearly past my threshold) is associated more with the HR or with the breathing. Because usually I get that kind of very discreet breathing from 190-193bpm (depending on circumstances) before it increases more noticeably to a less discreet (but still controlled) level at 195bpm (higher in warm weather). Heh. But yeah this was a fun test. =)

     

    I'm also told that I should be running the marathon mostly at the 180-185 HR zone because my lactate level is still virtually non existent even at 175bpm. They deduced that my training is mostly done at low HR below 170bpm and this is true (with the exception of the hard runs)... So from the data it seems that my running economy is not that great between 175 and 185 and this is very true because I can feel that myself, in the muscles and in the way my HR increases too fast in that zone compared to lower or higher HR zones. I'm basically told to do more runs in that zone to get used to it and make myself more fit for the marathon...

     

    Very interesting take! I did always wonder if LHR + some hard running was enough to make me prepared. I always had my doubts when I sometimes (very occasionally) happened to run in 175-185 zone. So this evaluation kind of makes sense to me...

      So, as I mentioned in another thread now... I've recently had a LT test done. It was pretty interesting and I thought I'd share stuff about it. Especially as I plan to once do the RQ test too and even jimmyb's test. Then I would have a pretty neat pile of data to analyse and compare =) Maybe it interests others too.

       

      The test was done on a treadmill in a really hot room... I'm pretty sure that affected my HR and I was overheating by the end. I'm told that the HR vs LT relationship doesn't change under such circumstances though. I hope so because just as I started warming up my HR was already 152. =)) The pace in such heat is of course supposed to decrease at LT or at any HR of course and as seen from the data, that clearly happened (7:25 pace is definitely slower than LT in a normal outdoors workout for me.)

       

      OK, so, they had me hold one specific speed for 4 minutes, then they took a drop of blood then they increased speed for another 4 minutes and so on. They did not attempt to take me to VO2max or anything, just taking me past LT. Results were interesting and quite some of it in line of what I've expected simply from observing myself and my training and races over the years.

       

      (I'm also happy to report that despite the heat, I was able to guess pretty accurately at my HR, as the HRM was not in sight of me, I was told of my HR only very occasionally during the test. My accuracy was off after passing 190 though, 199-200 only felt like 193 or so to me.)

       

      Raw data:

       

      (HR) - (lactate in mmol/l) - (pace on treadmill)

      165bpm - 1.3 - 9:39

      175bpm - 1.4 - 8:23
      189bpm - 4.1 - 7:25
      200bpm - 7.4 - 6:39

       

      I'm told my LT is around that value of 4, so around that 189-ish HR. That kind of matches with my guesses... I always thought it was around 190 or so.

       

      What I find interesting is that even though my HR went very high in the heat and I felt overheating, my breathing didn't increase that much, I mean I usually don't go all that crazy with my breathing anyway, but in this case it was really light, I opened my mouth a little bit for the last 1.5minutes of the last speed at HR=199bpm. (I did the rest with nose breathing as usual.) Oh I also observed how my muscles felt for another reference point =) At 189, it kind of felt like it always does at 189, so that's OK.

       

      So now I'm of course wondering if the 7.4 lactate (clearly past my threshold) is associated more with the HR or with the breathing. Because usually I get that kind of very discreet breathing from 190-193bpm (depending on circumstances) before it increases more noticeably to a less discreet (but still controlled) level at 195bpm (higher in warm weather). Heh. But yeah this was a fun test. =)

       

      I'm also told that I should be running the marathon mostly at the 180-185 HR zone because my lactate level is still virtually non existent even at 175bpm. They deduced that my training is mostly done at low HR below 170bpm and this is true (with the exception of the hard runs)... So from the data it seems that my running economy is not that great between 175 and 185 and this is very true because I can feel that myself, in the muscles and in the way my HR increases too fast in that zone compared to lower or higher HR zones. I'm basically told to do more runs in that zone to get used to it and make myself more fit for the marathon...

       

      Very interesting take! I did always wonder if LHR + some hard running was enough to make me prepared. I always had my doubts when I sometimes (very occasionally) happened to run in 175-185 zone. So this evaluation kind of makes sense to me...

       

      Great stuff, C.

       

      When you're ready, Tempo runs in that 175-190 will do you well. You don't have to spend a lot of time there. Once every week or two 20-40 minutes, depending on how much you can handle. It will gently move your LT a bit higher.  Not necessary if you're racing. You always get a huge lactate response in a race.

       

      --JimmyCool

      log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #143

       

        Great stuff, C.

         

        When you're ready, Tempo runs in that 175-190 will do you well. You don't have to spend a lot of time there. Once every week or two 20-40 minutes, depending on how much you can handle. It will gently move your LT a bit higher.  Not necessary if you're racing. You always get a huge lactate response in a race.

         

        --JimmyCool

         

         

        Thanks but I already do tempo runs weekly, in the 185-190 area, 30+ mins. I have no problem doing such runs, I mean, not that hard to handle. Considering that zone is still (just about) under LT, that's not surprising.

         

        Based on what I've been told, 20-40mins once a week at 175-185 would NOT be enough, I'm told I have to spend longer and more often than that in that area. To avoid misunderstanding, let me explicitly state, this zone is not a tempo run for me, as 175 and 190 are VERY different for me.

         

        You can see that from the raw data too, 175 is 1.4 and 189 is 4.1, big difference in lactate

          OH... that reminds me I forgot to compare the results to MAF HR... so yeah, I don't know about the 180-age MAF, but if 165 and 175 are this low in lactate, how low is 180-age HR for me ? =) (That would be low 150's for me going by the formula)

           

          Too bad that wasn't measured Smile

            Thanks but I already do tempo runs weekly, in the 185-190 area, 30+ mins. I have no problem doing such runs, I mean, not that hard to handle. Considering that zone is still (just about) under LT, that's not surprising.

             

            Based on what I've been told, 20-40mins once a week at 175-185 would NOT be enough, I'm told I have to spend longer and more often than that in that area. To avoid misunderstanding, let me explicitly state, this zone is not a tempo run for me, as 175 and 190 are VERY different for me.

             

            You can see that from the raw data too, 175 is 1.4 and 189 is 4.1, big difference in lactate

             

            If you are running at marathon HR, then that would be a marathon pace tempo run--still a tempo run. And it will improve your threshold--as long as lactate is being produced. You can make the MRP's much longer (I've gone up to 14 miles).  LT tempos should be in the neighborhood of your LT.  I do my LT tempos from 170-180 (My LT is in that range tested at 176-177 a few years back). I start out at 170 and usually my HR ends up at 180. So, I start below and go above. I've also done them just staying on 176.  I've seen improvement going as low as 165 in the beginning and letting it rise to 180. From personal experience, once a week, or every other week, is enough, especially if I have some high volume going on. No one can or should tell you should be doing two or more per week. That's someone's belief. Personal experimentation will tell you that. Whether or not someone is ready for these runs and how often, really depends on the state of the aerobic system and your health. Your aerobic speed (MAF) should improve if you've built a good base. If it doesn't, and regresses, then back off. If you are anywhere near being over-trained, too much could push you over. Your MAF tests (if you do them) will key you in.

            log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #143

             

              If you are running at marathon HR, then that would be a marathon pace tempo run--still a tempo run. And it will improve your threshold--as long as lactate is being produced. You can make the MRP's much longer (I've gone up to 14 miles).  LT tempos should be in the neighborhood of your LT.  I do my LT tempos from 170-180 (My LT is in that range tested at 176-177 a few years back). I start out at 170 and usually my HR ends up at 180. So, I start below and go above. I've also done them just staying on 176.  I've seen improvement going as low as 165 in the beginning and letting it rise to 180. From personal experience, once a week, or every other week, is enough, especially if I have some high volume going on. No one can or should tell you should be doing two or more per week. That's someone's belief. Personal experimentation will tell you that. Whether or not someone is ready for these runs and how often, really depends on the state of the aerobic system and your health. Your aerobic speed (MAF) should improve if you've built a good base. If it doesn't, and regresses, then back off. If you are anywhere near being over-trained, too much could push you over. Your MAF tests (if you do them) will key you in.

               

              Okay, then call it a MP run vs LT run. They are two very different things to me.

               

              I appreciate you trying to help, however, I need to say the following to make things clear.

               

              Please do not worry about me believing someone without thinking; I always make my own judgment about everything based on my own experience and my own logic.

               

              That is, I can only accept something on my own terms - that does sometimes make others feel like I'm a PITA when I'm not willing to take in their opinion "as is".

               

              You are no exception, nor is the person who's done the lactate test with me.

               

              Or alternatively: If you think I should not go with their opinion just because it's just a belief, why should I go with your belief any more than with theirs? =)

               

              Also, they have the right to say their opinion, you are not to tell others to limit expression of it.

              rarian


                Interesting.
                Yes LT is accepted as being at about 4mmol but I suspect that's a bit like saying your maxHR is about 220-age.

                My EP friend recently told me that lactate is closely associated with breathing.  That was just after he'd taken a single lactate reading from me apparently because he was curious that I seemed to be breathing easily.

                If I were you, I'd try those tempo runs slightly faster/harder.  When I do them I do them so I'm glad to finish at 30 mins and I find the average HR over the last 20 minutes is always 90% of my estimated maxHR drifting up to 92-3% at the end of the 30 mins.

                  Okay, then call it a MP run vs LT run. They are two very different things to me.

                   

                  I appreciate you trying to help, however, I need to say the following to make things clear.

                   

                  Please do not worry about me believing someone without thinking; I always make my own judgment about everything based on my own experience and my own logic.

                   

                  That is, I can only accept something on my own terms - that does sometimes make others feel like I'm a PITA when I'm not willing to take in their opinion "as is".

                   

                  You are no exception, nor is the person who's done the lactate test with me.

                   

                  Or alternatively: If you think I should not go with their opinion just because it's just a belief, why should I go with your belief any more than with theirs? =)

                   

                  Also, they have the right to say their opinion, you are not to tell others to limit expression of it.

                   

                   

                  You shouldn't go with my opinion. I never expect anyone to do so. My opinion "No one can or should tell you should be doing two or more per week. That's someone's belief. Personal experimentation will tell you that" still stands without withdrawal, as I think two or more LT runs recommended to anyone but an advanced amateur or elite is not good advice---but I don't expect anyone to shut up because I uttered it, I don't have that kind of power, nor do I seek it. I haven't told anyone to limit their expression of it, or say that they didn't have a right to say it. Just expressed an opinion. Nor do I expect you to heed my advice over theirs. Pretty much my point of view here on the  LOW-HEART RATE TRAINING forum is "here's what I do, here's what some do, here's what's happened to me, here's what's happen to others, here's an opinion or two, and experiment to find out for yourself."  Ultimately, why I'm here is because the others here train somewhat the same, LHRT, and I enjoy talking about training this way, sharing and reading reports on races, and helping out newbies when I can. I respond to your posts out of enjoyment, not a spirit of tyranny or Mr. Self-Proclaimed MAF Maven. I expect people to be free with their speech and actions, and that includes me and being able to state that opinion.

                   

                  Often in America, groups will protest what someone has said, an opinion that was either incorrect, insensitive, or maybe correct but unpopular. Someone might say "that group has no right to tell someone they shouldn't say that." My response is "welcome to America and freedom of speech, dude."

                  log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #143

                   

                    Interesting.
                    Yes LT is accepted as being at about 4mmol but I suspect that's a bit like saying your maxHR is about 220-age.

                    My EP friend recently told me that lactate is closely associated with breathing.  That was just after he'd taken a single lactate reading from me apparently because he was curious that I seemed to be breathing easily.

                    If I were you, I'd try those tempo runs slightly faster/harder.  When I do them I do them so I'm glad to finish at 30 mins and I find the average HR over the last 20 minutes is always 90% of my estimated maxHR drifting up to 92-3% at the end of the 30 mins.

                     

                     

                    Mhm, what is the proper LT then if not the place where lactate starts getting higher? Supposedly this is usually around 4mmol but yeah I read that it is not always the case.

                     

                    Sorry, EP = ? (As in "EP friend")

                     

                    What did he say about the breathing? As I said I was breathing pretty easily at 199bpm and 7.4 mmol lactate Smile I dunno why...

                     

                    The tempo runs that I do, I do them at around 190-ish (first lower than 190 then higher than 190 by the end) for 30-odd minutes (or perhaps a bit longer but then of course the associated average pace is slightly slower), yea I don't mind finishing the workout Smile though I'm not out of breath at the end of the tempo run... but definitely breathing harder than I did in the test at 7.4mmol. Also, I still feel steady state at the end though if I was to go on longer it would stop being steady state after a while. So hum...

                     

                    Also... When you finish those workouts do you feel like you've just run a race? I definitely don't feel that way, I feel fresher.

                     

                    The 90% (and 92-93%), is that heart rate reserve 90% or simply 0.9 * maxHR? If the latter, then yeah that's what my avgHR and maxHR tends to be for the tempo runs.

                     

                    Also the average pace tends to be the same as calculated by Jack Daniels VDOT table. (VDOT 48 for me currently Smile )

                      You shouldn't go with my opinion. I never expect anyone to do so. My opinion "No one can or should tell you should be doing two or more per week. That's someone's belief. Personal experimentation will tell you that" still stands without withdrawal, as I think two or more LT runs recommended to anyone but an advanced amateur or elite is not good advice---but I don't expect anyone to shut up because I uttered it, I don't have that kind of power, nor do I seek it. I haven't told anyone to limit their expression of it, or say that they didn't have a right to say it. Just expressed an opinion. Nor do I expect you to heed my advice over theirs. Pretty much my point of view here on the  LOW-HEART RATE TRAINING forum is "here's what I do, here's what some do, here's what's happened to me, here's what's happen to others, here's an opinion or two, and experiment to find out for yourself."  Ultimately, why I'm here is because the others here train somewhat the same, LHRT, and I enjoy talking about training this way, sharing and reading reports on races, and helping out newbies when I can. I respond to your posts out of enjoyment, not a spirit of tyranny or Mr. Self-Proclaimed MAF Maven. I expect people to be free with their speech and actions, and that includes me and being able to state that opinion.

                       

                      Often in America, groups will protest what someone has said, an opinion that was either incorrect, insensitive, or maybe correct but unpopular. Someone might say "that group has no right to tell someone they shouldn't say that." My response is "welcome to America and freedom of speech, dude."

                       

                       

                      Sure, we actually agree on how it's just a belief, it's just that I didn't understand the way you worded it. It sounded a bit weird. But nevermind =)

                       

                      Maybe it's just that we don't use the same definition for LT run. Mine is: LT pace/intensity = pace/intensity maintainable for about 1 hour. Thus, for me that 175-180/180-185 range is *not* an LT run. I think it's closest to Hadd's ILTHR runs and those are clearly not LT runs either, using the 1-hour pace definition.

                       

                      Hope that makes it clearer? Smile

                       

                      Btw I've tried a long run today and inserted 15K of 175-185 run in it (after the first 4.5miles). That was interesting... I was going at 8:10 pace for 10K, HR was hovering 175-177 the whole time... it felt easy, maintainable. Then I upped it a bit for the last 5K, to 7:50's... HR immediately went past 180, stayed under 185 though so that was OK, but I could see this was a slightly different intensity. Still not LT intensity, of course. Something like no man's land. Smile Total run length was over 15miles, I was tolerating the 15K at that faster pace pretty well. But based on experiences (old ones and this one too) I have a suspicion that this 185bpm should indeed be the threshold for the first 30K of the marathon. In the last 10K it won't matter anymore I suppose Smile

                        I found the topic of how breathing rate relates to LT interesting.  I recently monitored my breathing rates and found the following:

                         

                        Easy pace:  30 breaths per minute or less

                        LT pace:  40 to 45 breaths per minute

                         

                        This seems to match what the article below mentioned.

                         

                        http://runnersconnect.net/running-tips/how-to-breathe-when-running/

                         

                        I don't advocate trying to breath a certain way, but I think it is helpful to observe it once in awhile in the same way you might check HR and other factors to see what intensity you are running at.

                         

                        I definitely thought there was a point where the breathing rate shot up quickly when you got to that LT point.

                         

                        They talk about 3:3 breathing meaning one breath out for 3 steps and one breath in for 3 steps which is considered to be an easy pace.  I never liked being conscious of my breathing like that.  I also find that mine constantly varies even when the pace and intensity do not seem to be changing.

                          I found the topic of how breathing rate relates to LT interesting.  I recently monitored my breathing rates and found the following:

                           

                          Easy pace:  30 breaths per minute or less

                          LT pace:  40 to 45 breaths per minute

                           

                          This seems to match what the article below mentioned.

                           

                          http://runnersconnect.net/running-tips/how-to-breathe-when-running/

                           

                          I don't advocate trying to breath a certain way, but I think it is helpful to observe it once in awhile in the same way you might check HR and other factors to see what intensity you are running at.

                           

                          I definitely thought there was a point where the breathing rate shot up quickly when you got to that LT point.

                           

                          They talk about 3:3 breathing meaning one breath out for 3 steps and one breath in for 3 steps which is considered to be an easy pace.  I never liked being conscious of my breathing like that.  I also find that mine constantly varies even when the pace and intensity do not seem to be changing.

                           

                           

                          yeah, I also don't like being conscious of my breathing. what I'm more interested in is the exhalation changes because it's correlated with CO2 production. (which means more sugar being burnt)

                          rarian


                            Mhm, what is the proper LT then if not the place where lactate starts getting higher? Supposedly this is usually around 4mmol but yeah I read that it is not always the case.

                             

                            Sorry, EP = ? (As in "EP friend")

                             

                            What did he say about the breathing? As I said I was breathing pretty easily at 199bpm and 7.4 mmol lactate Smile I dunno why...

                             

                            The tempo runs that I do, I do them at around 190-ish (first lower than 190 then higher than 190 by the end) for 30-odd minutes (or perhaps a bit longer but then of course the associated average pace is slightly slower), yea I don't mind finishing the workout Smile though I'm not out of breath at the end of the tempo run... but definitely breathing harder than I did in the test at 7.4mmol. Also, I still feel steady state at the end though if I was to go on longer it would stop being steady state after a while. So hum...

                             

                            Also... When you finish those workouts do you feel like you've just run a race? I definitely don't feel that way, I feel fresher.

                             

                            The 90% (and 92-93%), is that heart rate reserve 90% or simply 0.9 * maxHR? If the latter, then yeah that's what my avgHR and maxHR tends to be for the tempo runs.

                             

                            Also the average pace tends to be the same as calculated by Jack Daniels VDOT table. (VDOT 48 for me currently Smile )

                             

                             EP = exercise physiologist.  I've learned a lot from him in the last couple of years since I've been allowed to use the gym where i work - he's the gym manager. 

                             

                            My understanding is that the LT is the point on one's lactate curve where the gradient increases a certain amount - I think EP's talk of two different points.  That point is 'about 4 mmol' but I expect it ranges in individuals from approx 3.4 to4.6.

                             

                            Because I can record HR I focus on HR; his comment was about lactate being more associated with breathing than HR. 

                             

                            Yes, I was using %'s of maxHR - my accidentally observed maxHR some years ago, adjusted for age.  If I was using 220-age I'd finish tempo runs at 102-3%!  I've never gone longer than 30 mins, I've sometimes fallen short, but never less than 20 mins.  They're always done on tm and it's easier to stay with the program I use, and if I reach 30 mins it always a relief to go to the warm-down. 

                             

                            Hadd says in that document where he talked about training the runner 'Joe' that from his experience he prefers to do lactate tests with at least 8 minute stages - your test used 4 mins.  Last week my 'EP friend'  tried a progressive lactate test which didn't work well because the subject had been exercising intensely not long before,  but using 4 min stages it was noticeable that the subject's HR climbed in the first 2 mins of each stage and then plateaued/ rose a little in the last 2 mins.  The subject's  lactate readings were 5.8, 3.8, 3.9 for the three completed stages.  Possibly the first reading was corrupted somehow, possibly his lactate was still coming down from the previous exercise.

                              My understanding is that the LT is the point on one's lactate curve where the gradient increases a certain amount - I think EP's talk of two different points.  That point is 'about 4 mmol' but I expect it ranges in individuals from approx 3.4 to4.6.

                               

                              Because I can record HR I focus on HR; his comment was about lactate being more associated with breathing than HR. 

                               

                              Yes, I was using %'s of maxHR - my accidentally observed maxHR some years ago, adjusted for age.  If I was using 220-age I'd finish tempo runs at 102-3%!  I've never gone longer than 30 mins, I've sometimes fallen short, but never less than 20 mins.  They're always done on tm and it's easier to stay with the program I use, and if I reach 30 mins it always a relief to go to the warm-down. 

                               

                              Hadd says in that document where he talked about training the runner 'Joe' that from his experience he prefers to do lactate tests with at least 8 minute stages - your test used 4 mins.  Last week my 'EP friend'  tried a progressive lactate test which didn't work well because the subject had been exercising intensely not long before,  but using 4 min stages it was noticeable that the subject's HR climbed in the first 2 mins of each stage and then plateaued/ rose a little in the last 2 mins.  The subject's  lactate readings were 5.8, 3.8, 3.9 for the three completed stages.  Possibly the first reading was corrupted somehow, possibly his lactate was still coming down from the previous exercise.

                               

                               

                              thanks for your reply, it's mostly clear now. I'm a bit late here but maybe you're still around... Smile

                               

                              what I don't know is this: how should the breathing change when LT is reached?

                               

                              when I got to 4mmol in the test, there was no change in breathing yet. getting to 200bpm there was finally some change though I was still not breathing that hard... well ok, maybe I'm just at the higher end of that range you mentioned Smile

                               

                              btw shouldn't 4mins for each stage in the test be enough time? is this what you wanted to say?

                                anyway... I've tried training more regularly at that 175-180/185 HR zone (doing it 2-3 times a week) and it works great so far. it's a lot easier than a tempo run and it still seems effective. my paces improved nicely, almost crazy really. I'll post more after trying it for a longer period.

                                 

                                also, reviewing all my training so far, everything that was ever done... it seems like that training strictly below 170bpm isn't effective for improving racing times up to half marathon distances (I guess the marathon is different though but no experience there yet). have to throw in some runs at higher than 170bpm for such goals. I guess I really just have this kind of high HR...

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