Low HR Training

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Questions about maf (Read 34 times)

Jacob9698


    Hi everyone,

     

    I am a 17 year old xc and track runner. I have been training consistently with improvement for 2 years. My xc season just finished and I am starting my three week break away from training. I am interested at training at maf. Should I do the treadmill test for maf during my three week break or at the beginning of training? Maybe I should start the treadmill test after I have ran a few weeks? Also, if you train at maf, does that mean you can increase your aerobic base mileage? My aerobic base last year built up to 60 miles a week so I was wondering if I could build up more mileage this season.

     

    Thanks,

    Jacob

    BeeRunB


      Hi Jacob,

       

      The treadmill test isn't a necessary part of the program, nor is it mentioned in an of Dr. Phil Maffetone's books or interviews. It hasn't been proven to be accurate due to the unscientific nature of it and the small sample of tests. I thought it would be a tool to help someone be more sure about their MAF, and show how the MAF formula is pretty accurate most of the time. So far, in most tests, there as been a deflection point within a few beats of the calculated MAF. All that is necessary is that you calculate your MAF and run at that heart rate. You might find that you can run longer and further and eclipse that 60 mpw you did in the past. With that volume you should be able to build a huge aerobic engine. Just keep in touch with your aerobic speed through MAF tests or monitoring how fast you're going at MAF on similar courses under similar conditions. Your aerobic speed should be improving from month to month. If not, adjustments need to be made.

       

      Keep in touch with how your body feels. Don't run yourself into exhaustion and injury. Stay healthy.

       

      In your current state of health and having improved over the past few years, 180-17+5=168. Just go with that, and only do the treadmill test for fun and to add to the "experiment" many of us are undertaking.

       

      I also recommend that you read one of Dr. Phil's books, listen to his interviews and check out his website. Always best to educate yourself from the source material rather than a plodding age-grouper like me.

       

      Good luck, and have fun! Keep us posted on your experiment with MAF training.

       

      --JimmyCool

      DollarBill


        Jacob,

        I would just add that you should talk to your coach and let him/her know you are considering this.

        Good luck on the upcoming seasons.

        Jacob9698


          Hi,

           

          After two weeks of rest I went on my first run! I ran a maf test on relatively flat asphalt. I attempted to warmup in the first mile but then I ended up running my maf pace. This run was primarily flat and on asphalt. It was 65 degrees outside.

           

          average pace                    average heart rate

          1st mile:                 8:34                                       162

          2nd mile:                8:42                                       167

          3rd mile:                 9:07                                       166

          4th mile:                 9:17                                       167

          5th mile:                 9:28                                       166

           

          During my first run of the season it would be hard because I would try to run to fast. However, after I was finished it hardly even felt like I ran. Is this normal? Also, how do you guys feel about weight training while running in your base phase? I've read a lot about Dr. Maffetone and the maf formula over the past two weeks but I get conflicting answers on the topic of weight training while in the base phase. Dr. Maffetone says that you shouldn't weight train while running the base phase whereas in the Lore of Running it says that Mark Allen weight trained in the base phase while using the maf formula.

           

          Thanks,

          Jacob

          BeeRunB


            Nice first test of the season, Jacob. It's normal to feel less taxed running at MAF, depends how long you go, though. Go out and do 20 miles at MAF, and you'll feel tired, but less so than if you did the twenty as a progressive run over MAF. On weight-training: let your aerobic speed (MAF) be your guide. If you introduce weight-training and your aerobic progress continues, then you're probably okay. If it suddenly plateaus and/or regresses, then maybe it's too much training load at that point. That's the point of monitoring your aerobic speed. It's a feedback method to help you adjust your training load. It lets your body be your guide, not the beliefs of others.

             

            Mark Allen did strength training during base-phase in his later years, and was able to absorb it just fine into his training load. He would have canned it if his aerobic speed was regressing, though. He was religious with his MAF tests and used them as a guide.

             

            Remember that  Dr. Phil worked mostly with broken-down athletes, and in his experience, weight-training impeded aerobic progress probably most of the time in these people. Probably the majority of people who come to the method are broken down to some extent, or beginners, so I'm sure he feels it's solid advice based on his experience and the fact that often people are rebuilding with this method. He's trying to keep his readers healthy as a priority.

             

            Hi,

             

            After two weeks of rest I went on my first run! I ran a maf test on relatively flat asphalt. I attempted to warmup in the first mile but then I ended up running my maf pace. This run was primarily flat and on asphalt. It was 65 degrees outside.

             

            average pace                    average heart rate

            1st mile:                 8:34                                       162

            2nd mile:                8:42                                       167

            3rd mile:                 9:07                                       166

            4th mile:                 9:17                                       167

            5th mile:                 9:28                                       166

             

            During my first run of the season it would be hard because I would try to run to fast. However, after I was finished it hardly even felt like I ran. Is this normal? Also, how do you guys feel about weight training while running in your base phase? I've read a lot about Dr. Maffetone and the maf formula over the past two weeks but I get conflicting answers on the topic of weight training while in the base phase. Dr. Maffetone says that you shouldn't weight train while running the base phase whereas in the Lore of Running it says that Mark Allen weight trained in the base phase while using the maf formula.

             

            Thanks,

            Jacob

              Hi,

               

              After two weeks of rest I went on my first run! I ran a maf test on relatively flat asphalt. I attempted to warmup in the first mile but then I ended up running my maf pace. This run was primarily flat and on asphalt. It was 65 degrees outside.

               

              average pace                    average heart rate

              1st mile:                 8:34                                       162

              2nd mile:                8:42                                       167

              3rd mile:                 9:07                                       166

              4th mile:                 9:17                                       167

              5th mile:                 9:28                                       166

               

              During my first run of the season it would be hard because I would try to run to fast. However, after I was finished it hardly even felt like I ran. Is this normal? Also, how do you guys feel about weight training while running in your base phase? I've read a lot about Dr. Maffetone and the maf formula over the past two weeks but I get conflicting answers on the topic of weight training while in the base phase. Dr. Maffetone says that you shouldn't weight train while running the base phase whereas in the Lore of Running it says that Mark Allen weight trained in the base phase while using the maf formula.

               

              Thanks,

              Jacob

               

              nice stuff for a start.

               

              also, nice to see someone else who feels they hardly did anything in HR of 160's.

               

              I guess I am like a 17 year old myself Big grin

               

              I think yes, it's ok to hardly feel like you even ran much.

               

              btw just curious, what are your PRs?

                Nice first test of the season, Jacob. It's normal to feel less taxed running at MAF, depends how long you go, though. Go out and do 20 miles at MAF, and you'll feel tired, but less so than if you did the twenty as a progressive run over MAF.

                 

                 

                That's for sure. I think that's intensity dependent.

                 

                I don't feel tired at 180-age HR going 20 miles. Smile

                 

                At HR's like 180-age+15 and higher, I would definitely feel it a bit, well my body would, I don't necessarily notice it much.

                Jacob9698


                   

                  nice stuff for a start.

                   

                  also, nice to see someone else who feels they hardly did anything in HR of 160's.

                   

                  I guess I am like a 17 year old myself Big grin

                   

                  I think yes, it's ok to hardly feel like you even ran much.

                   

                  btw just curious, what are your PRs?

                   

                  My pr for the 5k is 16:53

                  Pr for the mile is 4:35

                  Pr for the 2 mile 9:55

                  I definitely have more speed then I do endurance. That is why I'm doing the maf training, I want to have more endurance.

                     My pr for the 5k is 16:53

                    Pr for the mile is 4:35

                    Pr for the 2 mile 9:55

                    I definitely have more speed then I do endurance. That is why I'm doing the maf training, I want to have more endurance.

                     

                    yeah oh, your 5K could be a whole minute faster. Big grin

                     

                    you're fast though!

                     

                    I find it really interesting that with such PR's you only have 8:30-9:30 paces at HR of 166-167.

                     

                    I don't think your maxHR would be much higher than mine and I have this sort of pace at a HR range 15 beats lower than yours. And my shorter distance PRs are nowhere near yours... :/

                     

                    so yes, it does sound like a lot of room for improvement in endurance. better endurance will make you faster too in 5K.  one day you could aim for sub-2:30 marathon too hehehehe. one day sometime in future :P you have the speed for it!

                     

                    good luck and keep us posted! Big grin

                     

                    one last question, what mileage do you plan on doing? last year the 60miles of base building, was that at higher aerobic paces than this, I guess? like 7min/mile pace or something?

                    Jacob9698


                       

                      yeah oh, your 5K could be a whole minute faster. Big grin

                       

                      you're fast though!

                       

                      I find it really interesting that with such PR's you only have 8:30-9:30 paces at HR of 166-167.

                       

                      I don't think your maxHR would be much higher than mine and I have this sort of pace at a HR range 15 beats lower than yours. And my shorter distance PRs are nowhere near yours... :/

                       

                      so yes, it does sound like a lot of room for improvement in endurance. better endurance will make you faster too in 5K.  one day you could aim for sub-2:30 marathon too hehehehe. one day sometime in future :P you have the speed for it!

                       

                      good luck and keep us posted! Big grin

                       

                      one last question, what mileage do you plan on doing? last year the 60miles of base building, was that at higher aerobic paces than this, I guess? like 7min/mile pace or something?

                      That was my first day running after a 2 week break so that's probably why I was so slow and the test wasn't on track. I would like to work up to 70 miles of base building and incorporate some cross-training , but I don't think think that's going to be possible with school. That 60 mile base was in the summer. Ya it was about 7 min/pace but i would 6 mile tempos at 6 minute pace. I was wildly inconsistent on my runs though. Some days i could barely keep 6:40 for a tempo and others I could 6 minute pace no problem. The same thing happened for races too.

                        That was my first day running after a 2 week break so that's probably why I was so slow and the test wasn't on track. I would like to work up to 70 miles of base building and incorporate some cross-training , but I don't think think that's going to be possible with school. That 60 mile base was in the summer. Ya it was about 7 min/pace but i would 6 mile tempos at 6 minute pace. I was wildly inconsistent on my runs though. Some days i could barely keep 6:40 for a tempo and others I could 6 minute pace no problem. The same thing happened for races too.

                         

                        Ohh that explains some of it, the break. I guess it's individual but I find that with one single week off, the first couple of runs will suffer HR wise. The legs are fresh and quick though, just HR goes so bad Tongue Then, after three weeks of no running, I take 4-6 weeks to get back into previous good shape. Sad No idea on two weeks and it's individual anyway. I'm sure your MAF pace will improve really soon if it hasn't yet.

                         

                        If you were inconsistent with faster runs it sounds like you went somewhat past the optimal training load. Perhaps you were at a training load that still allowed you to improve a bit but at the cost of being so inconsistent at faster paces and at the cost of not being as effective either as the optimal load.

                         

                        Either that, or you didn't keep the rule of "one hard day - at least one (preferably two) easy days".

                         

                        Any idea what your HR was in the summer base building? If you had a HRM back then...

                        Jacob9698


                           

                          Ohh that explains some of it, the break. I guess it's individual but I find that with one single week off, the first couple of runs will suffer HR wise. The legs are fresh and quick though, just HR goes so bad Tongue Then, after three weeks of no running, I take 4-6 weeks to get back into previous good shape. Sad No idea on two weeks and it's individual anyway. I'm sure your MAF pace will improve really soon if it hasn't yet.

                           

                          If you were inconsistent with faster runs it sounds like you went somewhat past the optimal training load. Perhaps you were at a training load that still allowed you to improve a bit but at the cost of being so inconsistent at faster paces and at the cost of not being as effective either as the optimal load.

                           

                          Either that, or you didn't keep the rule of "one hard day - at least one (preferably two) easy days".

                           

                          Any idea what your HR was in the summer base building? If you had a HRM back then...

                          Never used a heart rate monitor back then...