Low HR Training

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My Recent Bout With Overtraining (Read 1122 times)

AlexVan


Motivated by HRV

    This is very interesting.  I believe I have just had a very similar experience. I am 46 years old and  6'2 / 200lbs so "medium build" ...  MAF tests were improving nicely for 4 months prior to a a heavier week of training with one 25km run, next day my typical RHR=46 was +2.  

     

    This was followed by a vacation on a very hilly island (Santorini) where we walked a lot every day, 10-15km/day average with lots of hills and stairs, and about 2-4 hours a day walking and more hours on our feet so on average very slow.  I did a small amount of HR monitoring and I do know on some of the hills and stairs it would hit up into MAF range for short periods of time.  We did walk for 10 days in a row.

     

    During this vacation I did do a 2 hill run/walks mostly MAF, but did have high HR for short periods of time, I started seeing my RHR going up +6... so decided to only walk and by the end of the vacation my RHR was +10, surprising I was watching it go up for days in a row of only walking.  Now it is possible the higher HR hill runs were having a delayed effect, but I have not seen delayed RHR affects any other time, maybe RHR tail, but not RHR increase after a few days of walking / recovery.

     

    Now after 1 week back from vacation and two Zone 1 (MAF - 10) 10k  runs (recovery week) I was currently feeling only slightly motivated to get out although still RHR +4 or +5 but decided to try a MAF test today and it was 15% worse than 1 month ago.  So what does that all mean, that I also truly believe that hill walking at mostly LOW HR, but some MAF has significantly contributed to an over-reached / over-trained state.  

     

    I assume I need to now take more recovery time and get that RHR totally back to normal and my MAF test improvement.  

     

     

      

      This is very interesting.  I believe I have just had a very similar experience. I am 46 years old and  6'2 / 200lbs so "medium build" ...  MAF tests were improving nicely for 4 months prior to a a heavier week of training with one 25km run, next day my typical RHR=46 was +2.  

       

      This was followed by a vacation on a very hilly island (Santorini) where we walked a lot every day, 10-15km/day average with lots of hills and stairs, and about 2-4 hours a day walking and more hours on our feet so on average very slow.  I did a small amount of HR monitoring and I do know on some of the hills and stairs it would hit up into MAF range for short periods of time.  We did walk for 10 days in a row.

       

      During this vacation I did do a 2 hill run/walks mostly MAF, but did have high HR for short periods of time, I started seeing my RHR going up +6... so decided to only walk and by the end of the vacation my RHR was +10, surprising I was watching it go up for days in a row of only walking.  Now it is possible the higher HR hill runs were having a delayed effect, but I have not seen delayed RHR affects any other time, maybe RHR tail, but not RHR increase after a few days of walking / recovery.

       

      Now after 1 week back from vacation and two Zone 1 (MAF - 10) 10k  runs (recovery week) I was currently feeling only slightly motivated to get out although still RHR +4 or +5 but decided to try a MAF test today and it was 15% worse than 1 month ago.  So what does that all mean, that I also truly believe that hill walking at mostly LOW HR, but some MAF has significantly contributed to an over-reached / over-trained state.  

       

      I assume I need to now take more recovery time and get that RHR totally back to normal and my MAF test improvement.  

       

      I walk extensively on vacations, and it can be exhausting doing all those miles, hills and stairs. Your RHR getting that high is a sign to back off. If you only overreached a bit on your training load, it should bounce back quickly with a period of MAF and below running. If it doesn't, and gets worse---take complete rest until it does. That's what I did. I took 12 weeks off from running and that did the trick. After 8 years of not taking more than a few weeks off from running---it was good to do both physically and mentally. Since coming back in May, my RHR is back to the 48-50 range. I lost a lot of fitness while off, so didn't expect it to be that low when returning. Heading in the right direction.

       

      You're playing it smart--no need to force things---follow your body, MAF speed, and RHR, while avoiding obsessing about missed training days are the keys.

       

      Good luckCool

      -Jimmy

      log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #142

       

      AlexVan


      Motivated by HRV

        Thanks Jimmy, yes I am backing off for sure now.  Yeah in a past life I spent a lot of time focused on endurance sports, mostly mountain climbing and hiking but this is my first consistent period of running.  Now that I am 10 + years older than previous and/or running, I seem to have to pay close attention to this over-training as this is second indication in last 3 months.  

         

        Low HR, barefoot/minimalist and focus on form has changed everything for me, I had no idea how much fun running could be!!!  Since this is just 5 months into this level of consistency of running, I hope I don't need a long break yet, but I do plan/hope to add some longer breaks before I am forced to do so.  At this time I will wait until RHR is back down to +0 or +1 though before doing much.  I like running to work 3 days per week, but the jury is still out if MAF-10 for round trip of 9km is recovery or not.  Tomorrow I will very light bike to work. It seems like when I was feeling fine MAF-10 to work did not raise my RHR for next morning so I will see what happens on Wed.

         

        I am also using training peaks PMC chart, not sure if you have used that but it says I have been negative TSB (training stress balance) for almost a month which is more time than Joe Friel says most people can handle, especially with a deep negative in the beginning.

         

        I just joined RunningAhead, after realizing this is the running community I belong in Smile

         

        Again, thanks for the insight ~alex

        AlexVan


        Motivated by HRV

          So as an update now 15 days into approximately 20% volume/training stress, and I have tried some short distance(8km)  very low HR running and I get sore for a few days for what basically seems like no reason, other than classic over-training / over-reaching symptoms, prior to this I did not get sore from a faster 25k even for 1 day...   So this week has been 0 running and it's also crazy in this state, even long flat slow walks are not recovery as the next day I will have a higher resting HR and lower HRV.  9k bike ride is fine for RHR/HRV, but 9k walk is not.  Very interesting learning experience.   Looks like I might be in for a longer recovery like you Jimmi.    ~alex

            During this vacation I did do a 2 hill run/walks mostly MAF, but did have high HR for short periods of time, I started seeing my RHR going up +6... so decided to only walk and by the end of the vacation my RHR was +10, surprising I was watching it go up for days in a row of only walking.  Now it is possible the higher HR hill runs were having a delayed effect, but I have not seen delayed RHR affects any other time, maybe RHR tail, but not RHR increase after a few days of walking / recovery.

             

             

            could also have been due to losing fitness after stopping regular consistent training in running (you switched to walk-only days right?).

             

             

             

            So as an update now 15 days into approximately 20% volume/training stress, and I have tried some short distance(8km)  very low HR running and I get sore for a few days for what basically seems like no reason, other than classic over-training / over-reaching symptoms, prior to this I did not get sore from a faster 25k even for 1 day...   So this week has been 0 running and it's also crazy in this state, even long flat slow walks are not recovery as the next day I will have a higher resting HR and lower HRV.  9k bike ride is fine for RHR/HRV, but 9k walk is not.  Very interesting learning experience.   Looks like I might be in for a longer recovery like you Jimmi.    ~alex

             

            soreness from the 8k could also be due to having lost fitness from not training. (let me know if I misread your post, I interpreted the 20% as hardly any running, very short distances.) that's my experience anyhow. if I don't train for a couple of weeks then coming back to it the body has to get used to it again for a few days or it can even take up to 3-6 weeks before it returns to previous fitness including no soreness/no heavy legs etc.

             

             

            overall my own personal experience is that it's easy to confuse overtraining (if only basing it on less tolerance for training load and higher HR) with simply getting out of shape. consistency in training is important.

             

             

            also this obsession with checking RHR after walks... I find that if I stress about my RHR value it won't go low. if I don't stress, I don't watch it, it will happily go nice low Smile so yeah, due to that I don't give it much thought, that's the only way RHR measuring works for me reliably enough. (I don't have access to HRV data so no comment on that)

             

             

            seriously though, why wouldn't a flat slow walk be recovery? of course here I don't know how long is a long walk for you, more than 1 hour? then maybe... but why do it for so long? 30-40minutes is enough for exercise if done with recovery purposes. anything significantly longer than that is not going to be in the recovery category.

             

             

            anyway, AlexVan, have you got back into running without problems since then, running happily? I hope so Smile

            AlexVan


            Motivated by HRV

              Hello cmon2, some how I missed this post response.  Thanks for your ideas, yeah maybe I lost fitness quickly but it really seemed like something else, last year was my first real year running so it was probably TMTS.  And yes I was doing 2-3 hour walks + running, yes I totally agree with you, 30 minute easy walks should definitely be recovery.

               

              So due to heavy snow and the flu my running cut way back to an average of 1-2 times per week for 2 months and shorter distances, even 2 weeks totally off, I lost a lot of fitness, but have spent the last month in the sun in Vegas and running 5-6 days a week so I am fully back to pre-winter fitness MAF test wise, which is incredibly fun again!!!  This year I decided to drop 5 bpm off my MAF max, this -5 might actually be my correct MAF.  I am 46 and now at 134 max, maybe no +5.  I am spending time more like Middlemen's MAP zone...  I believe by dropping 5 or even more, and mostly running < 1 hour I am getting much predictable base building fitness response with consistent full RHR / HRV recovery in 24 hours.

               

              I do feel you are probably right loosing fitness vs over-training are probably hard to differentiate I have been using iThlete HRV and RHR since last September and this seems like a very good strategy for when to take it easy or take a day off.  HRV really seems to confirm what is going on with my body, it slammed way down the day before getting the flu.  You can see picture below, I HRV was down for a couple weeks while I was sick and I eased back into running after it came back up.  As my fitness is really improving this month you can see HRV improving and also RHR is following.  

               

              iThlete Q1 2013

               

               

              I did some light weight training last week and immediately had to take 2 days (see the 2nd to last high blue line and subsequent drop) off to get my HRV / RHR back to 100%.  Anyway thanks for asking as you can see I am inspired!!! Smile

                Hello cmon2, some how I missed this post response.  Thanks for your ideas, yeah maybe I lost fitness quickly but it really seemed like something else, last year was my first real year running so it was probably TMTS.  And yes I was doing 2-3 hour walks + running, yes I totally agree with you, 30 minute easy walks should definitely be recovery.

                 

                So due to heavy snow and the flu my running cut way back to an average of 1-2 times per week for 2 months and shorter distances, even 2 weeks totally off, I lost a lot of fitness, but have spent the last month in the sun in Vegas and running 5-6 days a week so I am fully back to pre-winter fitness MAF test wise, which is incredibly fun again!!!  This year I decided to drop 5 bpm off my MAF max, this -5 might actually be my correct MAF.  I am 46 and now at 134 max, maybe no +5.  I am spending time more like Middlemen's MAP zone...  I believe by dropping 5 or even more, and mostly running < 1 hour I am getting much predictable base building fitness response with consistent full RHR / HRV recovery in 24 hours.

                 

                I do feel you are probably right loosing fitness vs over-training are probably hard to differentiate I have been using iThlete HRV and RHR since last September and this seems like a very good strategy for when to take it easy or take a day off.  HRV really seems to confirm what is going on with my body, it slammed way down the day before getting the flu.  You can see picture below, I HRV was down for a couple weeks while I was sick and I eased back into running after it came back up.  As my fitness is really improving this month you can see HRV improving and also RHR is following.  

                  

                I did some light weight training last week and immediately had to take 2 days (see the 2nd to last high blue line and subsequent drop) off to get my HRV / RHR back to 100%.  Anyway thanks for asking as you can see I am inspired!!! Smile

                 

                I'm glad you're back on track Smile

                 

                interesting things you're saying there. I'm interested in this HRV business myself, too bad I'm not in the mood to buy an iphone just for that... I might look for a way to get HRV data off my garmin 910xt though... also curious how it would line up with what my weakest link in the chain tells me (my quadriceps muscles). I find I can use that weakest link to know when it's too much Smile

                AlexVan


                Motivated by HRV

                  Yes I would say from my perspective I can only see my body problems after HRV has noticeably dropped, so currently I feel HRV usually warns me sooner. So I have been backing off if HRV drops a little so I don't get the other symptoms in my case that is usually sore ankles / feet.

                   

                  I have been playing around with RR HR data from my Polar rs800cx, the same as your Garmin, then loading it into Kubios.  iThlete is much easier on a daily basis but Kubios gives all the data you need too but much more complex and generally more time consuming, I would be too lazy to do it on a daily basis.  Have you tried morning RHR?  You can try that, or Rusko test, I would guess Rusko might be as reliable as HRV but again not so simple as the 1 minute iThlete.

                   

                  This link shows video how Kubios works (Kubios is free)

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CdEoXGNt_c

                   

                  Also I guess firstbeat will analyze your RR data but it might be cheaper and definitely easier to buy a used iPhone or Android.

                  AlexVan


                  Motivated by HRV

                    Hey cmon2, I just re-read my post based on your responses and obviously ignore the question "Have you tried morning RHR?" Smile  I am sure you would ignore this, but after spending more time reading around the forums here and re-reading this I realized the answer is obvious.  It was great to read back through Jimmy's older posts of his experience / progression.  Again, great forum.

                      Yes I would say from my perspective I can only see my body problems after HRV has noticeably dropped, so currently I feel HRV usually warns me sooner. So I have been backing off if HRV drops a little so I don't get the other symptoms in my case that is usually sore ankles / feet.

                       

                      I have been playing around with RR HR data from my Polar rs800cx, the same as your Garmin, then loading it into Kubios.  iThlete is much easier on a daily basis but Kubios gives all the data you need too but much more complex and generally more time consuming, I would be too lazy to do it on a daily basis.  Have you tried morning RHR?  You can try that, or Rusko test, I would guess Rusko might be as reliable as HRV but again not so simple as the 1 minute iThlete.

                       

                      This link shows video how Kubios works (Kubios is free)

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CdEoXGNt_c

                       

                      Also I guess firstbeat will analyze your RR data but it might be cheaper and definitely easier to buy a used iPhone or Android.

                       

                      wow thanks a lot for these tips on RR HR analysing software, I'll be checking that out!

                       

                      as for firstbeat, I tried the trial version and it wouldn't analyse anything. Sad then before I had a chance to mess with it to get it working, it expired, haha.

                       

                      a question about the rusko test - can this still be valid if done during the day? it's really a big inconvenience to me to have the HRM on me all night so that I can do the test in the morning... so yeah, my RHR measurement is never done in bed either, only later after I already got up (I do allow my body time to settle down/rest without moving.) I believe that's valid though, as long as it's done under the same conditions otherwise.

                       

                      Hey cmon2, I just re-read my post based on your responses and obviously ignore the question "Have you tried morning RHR?" Smile  I am sure you would ignore this, but after spending more time reading around the forums here and re-reading this I realized the answer is obvious.  It was great to read back through Jimmy's older posts of his experience / progression.  Again, great forum.

                       

                      yeah, see above about RHR - btw what I said about avoiding stressing out over RHR, to be precise that meant I don't measure it every day or it would "grow" on me too much (=become stressful). I'm spontaneous about which days I check it.

                        You can try that, or Rusko test, I would guess Rusko might be as reliable as HRV but again not so simple as the 1 minute iThlete.

                         

                         

                        ah, I found some old log about orthostatic HR testing... tried it for like 2 days lol I know that's nothing, I guess I forgot about it afterwards Surprised

                         

                        wasn't standard Rusko though (that would be http://www.ilog.ca/help/Rusko_Heart_Rate_Test.htm). interesting anyway...

                         

                        first day I had HR at 52bpm after lying down for 1 minute, then I stood up from 52bpm, got 85bpm after 15secs (top of increase was at 13secs though, 87bpm), after that Igot 53bpm back within 60 secs, still standing.

                         

                        next day 53bpm after 3mins of lying down, topping at 99bpm at 14 secs after standing up... 56bpm 60secs later, still standing. (then lie down and I got 48bpm 3 minutes later!)

                         

                        variation probably because first day was in the evening, next day was morning (couple hours after getting up).

                         

                        I was just coming back into regular training, I wasn't extremely fit, but wasn't too bad either.

                         

                        I should try this orthostatic HR or the Rusko version of the test again... I've been training more regularly and am more fit now.

                         

                        a note, article says that the Rusko test only needs to be done once a week. that sounds great, definitely low stress! Smile

                        AlexVan


                        Motivated by HRV

                          So I spent 1 month last year doing side by side comparisons and HRV, Rusko (like your link), and RHR.  My findings were that HRV matched my "feelings"  or physical more closely than the rest and now after 6 months of consistent HRV and RHR tracking. Now I can usually guess my HRV value based on how I feel or what training I did yesterday.  Using HRV it actually seems possible to predict recovery times to training stress. So in the future a weekly validation process might be possible, but since I started after my main running over-reaching last summer, this summer will give more insight if it is possible. I know different people get different results from HRV analysis...


                          In my month of review it seemed Rusko/Ortho it was more accurate then RHR but Rusko still jumped around semi-randomly at times.  Unlike you I never saw +0 (~55 bpm) from Rusko supine to standing so you must be super human Smile  with +0...  Mine goes from about +10 to +20 after 90 seconds.  
                          But for me Rusko is too boring / mentally painful to re-test so anything that looked weird just stayed that way in my tracking.  

                           

                          My HRV jumps around too, I would say about 1 day per week it looks weird.., but usually an interesting 1 minute re-test, 10 minutes later will align with how I feel, and subsequent tests will match the "correct" one.  As an example if I feel great and did not train hard in last 2 days and ithlete says I am low today, I can wait 10 minutes or until my RHR stabilizes at a lower level and then subsequent HRV tests will almost always match how I feel, or what I predicted if not I just take it easy...  I know it sounds a little unreliable but so far it seems very reliable to me.

                           

                          If you get into Kubios you can start doing comparisons with other people such as in this PDF (trained vs untrained)...

                           

                          http://sport.fitsense.com.au/downloads/SMAposter.pdf

                           

                          As well as future predictions of heart problems.  "They" say you should not compare HRV's but this article makes it possible to categorize yourself, HRV wise.   Kubios has so many numbers but SD1 and pNN50 seem the most relevant.  I am going to try to spend some time over the next few months seeing if I can correlate iThlete and how I feel to #s in Kubios.  As I said so far iThlete seems very accurate to my physical but I can't seem to get that same correlation from Kubios, I will let you know if I figure it out.

                           

                          Sorry for the rambling... I am just happy to have someone listen Smile As you can guess, I am a data geek, computer programmer by trade. Good luck with a great year of injury free running ~alex

                           

                          PS: back in Poland after a month of Vegas running, we have 1 foot of snow on the ground, I sure hope I can get motivated, right now with jet lag it is feeling difficult, I hope in a few weeks spring should start coming around... Wish me luck.

                            So I spent 1 month last year doing side by side comparisons and HRV, Rusko (like your link), and RHR.  (...) 

                            PS: back in Poland after a month of Vegas running, we have 1 foot of snow on the ground, I sure hope I can get motivated, right now with jet lag it is feeling difficult, I hope in a few weeks spring should start coming around... Wish me luck.

                             

                             

                            thanks, interesting link & info! I can be pretty geek-ish myself too, don't worry Smile

                             

                             

                            eheh, I don't know what it means that my numbers in the rusko test were this low/close to zero. Smile hopefully it only means good things Smile

                             

                             

                            what you say about the retesting 10-mins later makes sense. I find that RHR measuring can also get sensitive/random in this way. I really think it depends a bit on mental state too. and then physical parameters too, of course, like, if I was rushing around a lot before stopping to take my HR, on some days that can have an effect even several minutes later. on some other days it doesn't...

                             

                             

                            do let me know about kubios, thanks!

                             

                             

                            PS -> hey, running in snow is fun for a change! Big grin hopefully by now you've recovered from the jet lag already. (interesting tidbit, I've never had jet lag, I travelled a few times in my life far enough where I should have felt jet lag but nope, nothing! again, I must be superhuman... haha)

                            rarian


                              AlexVan

                              I'm following this with great interest as I'm also a RS800cx user (also a programmer by qualification but not by trade).  I don't use iThlete but I am a novice user of Kubios.

                               

                              The RS800cx has an inbuilt orthostatic test, as is the Rusko, called Optimizer.  Have you used Optimizer?  Unfortunately it seems to not produce a file that is useable with Kubios but it is possible to set up a new exercise, of orthostatic nature, that would produce a useable file.

                               

                              cmon2

                              Thanks for the Rusko link.  It's the first explanation I've seen of the orthostatic graph.

                              AlexVan


                              Motivated by HRV

                                Yeah the test on rs8800 seems like it might work but I am too lazy to do it daily except for a few days or so...  Yes producing file from rs800 for kubios is pretty early, just turn on feature "r-r" and you will get 2 hrm files.  You can just record a " run" or what ever and take the bigger hrm file and open in kubios.  Yes, I am waiting to start my tests until the snow goes whichshould be next week.  If you need any help, i can give you my emai.  Yes I will update here with my kubios findings.

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