Low HR Training

1

Low HR - Round Two (Read 44 times)

ohiopublic


    I'm attempting at giving the low HR thing another shot after bailing 3 years ago.  Unfortunately I'm going through the same self-doubts that I had back then.

     

    - Age 59 Male
    - 5k PR - 20:05/800 meters PR 2:22

    - Objective ---get endurance up so I can drop 5k by a minute and 800 by 10 seconds.

    - My focus is primarily 800 meters. Want to get faster.

     

    Since Jan 1 I have been running 1 1/2 hours 3-4 times per week and cycling (indoor trainer) 3-4 times per week at 1 1/2 hours.  I usually take one day per week off.  Although I'll make sure that I walk at least 3 miles on my off day.

     

    I have been running/cycling at an average of 125 HR. I am using the 180-Age (59) plus 5 as my guideline.  In 4 weeks I haven't seen any significant progress.  I am running at 14-16 minutes per mile at 125 HR (first mile is 14+ and ending at 15+ so just around a minute spread in mile pace from start to finish)..  So at 1 1/2 hours i'm lucky to hit 6 miles.  I'm not seeing any appreciable progress.  My mile paces (at 125 HR) are the same today (Feb. 4)  as when I started (Jan. 1)  Frustrated that I haven't seen ANY improvement.

    - When can I expect ANY improvement---does it really take 3-4 months before you see any improvement?

    - Am I aerobically that much of a train wreck?  I can go out and run 5 miles at mid 7 minute pace without any problem.  Why is this so difficult.

    - I ran on an AlterG (anti-gravity treadmill) in an attempt to get my leg speed up and still keep my HR at 125.  Would/Could using an AlterG help or hurt the low HR training.  I set the AlterG at 70% weight and go around 8-11 minute pace at 125 HR.  Can the AlterG be my downhill substitute.

    - The first time I tried the low HR thing I was only running around 45 minutes.  I've doubled it this time around hoping that more time/volume might improve my results but NADA so far.

    - Does the cycling help or hurt?  I can easily bag the cycling and go with 6 days running but I thought the time off my feet would be good plus I want to consider some triathlon this summer.

    - Still baffled about why a 65 year old gets 10 plus BPM. Hear me out! So at 64 my MAF HR should be 121 (180-64+5). Yet at 65, I would suddenly gain 9 BPM ( based on the plus 10 allowance for 65 year olds (180-65+5+10).  So hypothetically, the day before my 65th birthday I would be running at 121 HR.  The next day I would be running at 130 HR. So a 65 year old gets to run at 130 yet me at 59 runs at 126 HR.  Doesn't seem right?  If you are giving an allowance for an older runner shouldn't it be a sliding scale starting earlier instead of BOOM 10 extra BPM when you turn 65?

    BeeRunB


      Hello Ohio,

       

      Welcome back to Easyland. The heart of this method is to stay healthy while increasing volume and aerobic speed. There's a certain training load that you'll need to do to start progressing. It may be what you describe as what you're currently doin, or maybe a little more or less. That's what the MAF test is for. Just keep monitoring your speed at MAF, if it's progressing and you're feeling good, you're at a good volume. If not, and you're feeling good, then maybe more is needed. If not, and you're getting little naggy injuries or sick a lot, then maybe less is the key to get it moving again. It's that simple. Make up you're own thing and just stick to what I just laid out as your guide. Crosstraining is fine. Same principles apply.

       

      As for the 10 bpm thing, the formula  starts to lose its accuracy for some reason probably much sooner, if it's ten beats. I have a treadmill test that I do that I trust and I get a 132 even though my age of 54 says I should be 126. Maffetone has also stated that you can keep the same MAF for up to 5 years (that would make my 132 just fine in that regard). So there's some leeway. Especially if you're healthy and feeling good. It's best to be strict with the formula and the subtractions if you're injured or overtrained. Training lower than MAF never hurts. If you're feeling good, and you decide to take the +5 beats for a 126, then just monitor your aerobic speed, and let the improvement/no improvement be your guide. Along with how your body feels of course.

       

      Good luck. 

       

       

      p.s. let the MAF tests be the guide when you're adding speedwork and racing as well.

      ohiopublic


        Thanks Jimmy

         

        I haven't really done an a MAF Test yet just running an 1 1/2 hours at 125 BPM.  Last night ran another 1 1/2 hours. The last (running on an indoor track)  2 miles I got on the treadmill and the pace (unfortunately) is worse than I thought. Next to last mile was 17:08 and last mile was 17:38.  If it gets warm soon here, I might attempt to do a MAF test.  How long should I go?

         

        Just in terms of fatique, injury, etc and how 1 1/2 hours affects my body at 125 BPM, it probably doesn't have any affect.  I could easily do 2 hours, however I think the only thing that would affect me is that I could die of boredom.  So should I increase my volume?

         

        Also---didn't understand your treadmill test and how that works?

         

        Thanks again.

        BeeRunB


          The MAF test or something equivalent (like the same weekly run with same distance on the same course at MAF) is the foundation of it all. Testing on a TM takes out some variables like wind, sun, ducking around things and people, and other outdoor things that can affect how fast you cover a distance at MAF. But outside is fine. Make sure to keep track of the variables in your log (temperature, humidity, sun, rain, wind speed, your weight). A 1 mile test is fine (make sure you do the warm-up the same for each test, at least 10 minutes) or you can do the 5 mile test, or any distance over a mile really. You can also test by duration (e.g. do a 45 minute test--looking for increased distance in that duration).

          Plus your training runs on the same course should be getting better.

           

          I can't tell you to increase your volume, your body and your MAF tests will, like I laid out my first post. Number one thing is how your body is doing. As long as that is good, then if your tests are improving, no need to increase to much, because the current volume is working. If you're not improving or regressing at first and still feel good, then more volume might be needed.

           

          Treadmill test.

          ohiopublic


            Jimmy

             

            Don't know if I did this right as the treadmill at the gym couldn't be converted to KM and it is in .2 mile increments since I couldn't figure out to do manually bop the garmin.

             

            Did I do the treadmill test right and can you make anything of this?

             

            speed pace avg BPM
            4 15:00 115
            4.2 14:17 125
            4.4 13:38 133
            4.6 13:03 138
            4.8 12:30 142
            5 12:00 144
            5.2 11:32 147
            5.4 11:07 149
            5.6 10:43 153
            5.8 10:21 157
            6 10:00 159
            6.2 9:41 159
            6.4 9:22 162
            6.6 9:05 164
            6.8 8:49 167
            7 8:34 168
            7.2 8:20 168
            7.4 8:06 171
            7.6 7:54 172
            7.8 7:42 175
            8 7:30 176

             

            I stopped after about an hour. I think my Max is 182-185 but I didn't think it would get that high unless I started to go a lot longer or 6 minutes pace or under.

            BeeRunB


              You need to have more data points from the start to about 10 beats past MAF. You reached your calculated MAF in two points, where the average should be about 30-35 points of data. If you try it again, first research the treadmill your using. Most treadmills have a way of switching over to K instead of miles. On my tready, I hold a button and it gives me the choice of Europe or US.

               

              It takes a rhythm to boop the watch every ten seconds and increase speed.

               

               

               

              Jimmy

               

              Don't know if I did this right as the treadmill at the gym couldn't be converted to KM and it is in .2 mile increments since I couldn't figure out to do manually bop the garmin.

               

              Did I do the treadmill test right and can you make anything of this?

               

              speed pace avg BPM
              4 15:00 115
              4.2 14:17 125
              4.4 13:38 133
              4.6 13:03 138
              4.8 12:30 142
              5 12:00 144
              5.2 11:32 147
              5.4 11:07 149
              5.6 10:43 153
              5.8 10:21 157
              6 10:00 159
              6.2 9:41 159
              6.4 9:22 162
              6.6 9:05 164
              6.8 8:49 167
              7 8:34 168
              7.2 8:20 168
              7.4 8:06 171
              7.6 7:54 172
              7.8 7:42 175
              8 7:30 176

               

              I stopped after about an hour. I think my Max is 182-185 but I didn't think it would get that high unless I started to go a lot longer or 6 minutes pace or under.

              mt79


                My personal experience is that any cardio done for long durations seems to help improve my running pace at a given HR.  I've bicycled, stationary biked, swam, uphill treadmill walk 12-15% incline, arc trainer, trail hiking on hills, even lifted light weights and kept my HR in or close to the zone.  It generally takes me a couple weeks to see any improvement.  I've takes large chunks off my 10 mile/marathon this way and ran a decent 5k last Fall.

                 

                It sounds like you are following my training plan in 2013.  "Wow this LHR is easy, I guess I can run longer.  Wow still easy at 90 minutes, maybe I'll try 120 min.....injury"  You might be less injury prone, but too many miles will most likely have consequences.

                 

                One quick point.  An 800 is a really short race, aerobic fitness is only going to help so much on that one.

                 

                Dropping 1 minute off your 5k to hit a time of 19:05 at 59 years old is pretty bad ass performance.  That's national class performance.  Even the 20:05 at 59 is already bad ass haha.   Well done!