Low HR Training

1

Set-backs From Speed Work in the Basebuilding Phase. (Read 524 times)


My Hero

    I'm sure the answer is in the archives somewhere, but all I can find is several statements saying something to effect that If a person while in the base building phase of MAF training does speed work or run a race will suffer set-backs. My understanding (very limited) is that the person who has mostly run above their MAF has jumped over their slow twich muscles and thus never fully developing them. So, if that is the case, how does throwing in some faster paced runs while training in this low HR zone reverse the effects of developing the slow twitch cells if the faster pace is working different cells? Could someone please explain this physiologically in lay terms?
      Have you read Training For Endurance by Dr. Phil Maffetone? It's where all this came from. He explains it in the chapter on anaerobic training. I just checked two sources from which I bought copies in the past, and both are waiting for a reprint. It is tough t o get a copy right now. In a nutshell: from Training For Endurance by Dr. Phil Maffetone (David Barmore Productions, Stamford, NY) Chapter 11, page 90: *Anaerobic training can decrease the number of aerobic muscle fibers, sometimes significantly. This can happen in just a few short weeks of improper training. *Lactic acid produced during anaerobic training may inhibit the aerobic muscle enzymes which are necessary for aerobic metabolism *Anaerobic training raises your respiratory quotient. This means your % of energy derived fromm sugar increases and fat-burning decreases. In time, this may force more anaerobic metabolism and less aerobic function. The idea of a base phase is to stay aerobic to develop aerobic function. In Maffetone's terms, this means you are trying to raise the % of fat used in the fuel mix. If you're doing anaerobic work or racing, you are no longer in a base phase, but an anaerobic phase or a racing season. Please note that in the book he has a chapter on anaerobic training and how to do it. He is not opposed to it, but urges newbies, broken athletes, and people looking for true endurance to do a base phase first before undertaking any anaerobic, developing the aerobic system to the utmost in a period of at least 12-16 weeks (more if necessary). He developed this stuff working with athletes, and it was meant to get them healthy first, then back to racing in top form (but healthy, not beat up). Check out his books. Worth the 13.00. You can find similar information in the following of his books: Maffetone Method by Dr. Phillip Maffetone The High Performance Heart by Phil Maffetone Good luck. --Jimmy

      Log & Profile            Crusted Salt #210


      Half Fanatic #846

        Have you read Training For Endurance by Dr. Phil Maffetone? I just checked two sources from which I bought copies in the past, and both are waiting for a reprint. It is tough t o get a copy right now.
        I recently ordered from: www.2mammasnaturals.com and it should be in stock - the site is owned by one of the author's daughters... Bill Smile MTA: the exact page is: http://2mammasnaturals.com/order_books.html crap! I'm still "computer challenged". I'm used to the computers at work automatically linking...

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        lowgear1


        Max McMaffelow Esq.

          I recently ordered from: www.2mammasnaturals.com and it should be in stock - the site is owned by one of the author's daughters... Bill Smile MTA: the exact page is: http://2mammasnaturals.com/order_books.html crap! I'm still "computer challenged". I'm used to the computers at work automatically linking...
          Tuesday July 22, 2008 At the risk of sounding misogynistic, be careful with this URL.....i'm just saying Shocked Lg1 did a double take
          ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
          Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
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            I recently ordered from: www.2mammasnaturals.com and it should be in stock - the site is owned by one of the author's daughters... Bill Smile MTA: the exact page is: http://2mammasnaturals.com/order_books.html crap! I'm still "computer challenged". I'm used to the computers at work automatically linking...
            They're out of stock on Training For Endurance right now. It's a good source, I bought a few books from it. Including Training For Endurance (to lend out to friends). --Jimmy

            Log & Profile            Crusted Salt #210


            My Hero

              Have you read Training For Endurance by Dr. Phil Maffetone? No. I'm sure I'll find a copy. *Anaerobic training can decrease the number of aerobic muscle fibers, sometimes significantly. This can happen in just a few short weeks of improper training. The "faster paced" runs I was referring to was running at an effort below my LT. As A. Lydiard would call "steady state" aerobic runs. *Lactic acid produced during anaerobic training may inhibit the aerobic muscle enzymes which are necessary for aerobic metabolism Even if the pace is one I can hold comfortably for a couple of hours? *Anaerobic training raises your respiratory quotient. This means your % of energy derived fromm sugar increases and fat-burning decreases. In time, this may force more anaerobic metabolism and less aerobic function. I have heard that there is only so much glycogen that can be stored in the liver and muscles which is why perhaps being on pace for a 3:40 ish. marathon up to mile 21, ended up with a 3:58. The idea of a base phase is to stay aerobic to develop aerobic function. In Maffetone's terms, this means you are trying to raise the % of fat used in the fuel mix. If you're doing anaerobic work or racing, you are no longer in a base phase, but an anaerobic phase or a racing season. Please note that in the book he has a chapter on anaerobic training and how to do it. He is not opposed to it, but urges newbies, broken athletes, and people looking for true endurance to do a base phase first before undertaking any anaerobic, developing the aerobic system to the utmost in a period of at least 12-16 weeks (more if necessary). He developed this stuff working with athletes, and it was meant to get them healthy first, then back to racing in top form (but healthy, not beat up). Check out his books. Worth the 13.00. You can find similar information in the following of his books: Maffetone Method by Dr. Phillip Maffetone The High Performance Heart by Phil Maffetone Good luck. --Jimmy
              Thanks Jimmy. I really need to read all of this stuff. What got me interested in this concept of training was what Hadd had said regarding the toothpaste tube example. I believe that although I may have squeezed the tube a bit lower than some, I want to flatten that tube and extract all the aerobic.
              labhiker


                Id like to run a local 10mile race. As my training is focused on a fall marathon I run all miles at a sub-MAF pace. Is it OK to go out and run the 10mile race or is it best to hold it back and treat it as a training run? I would like to go out and see what my speed is however do not want to screw up my long-term goals for the fall. Im assuming it may be OK to get a little anerobic work and then return to MAF. My typical training runs start at MAF-20 and then build +5 bpm till MAF-10 range. (MAF = 134) For the 10 miler (after 1-2 mile subMAF warm up) Im thinking of starting the first 3 miles at 140-150bpm, then building miles 4 - 8 @ 150-165 bpm and the finishing the last 2 miles @ 165 - 175+. Does this plan sould OK or is it too aggressive for an anerobic workout?

                labhiker

                  Id like to run a local 10mile race. As my training is focused on a fall marathon I run all miles at a sub-MAF pace. Is it OK to go out and run the 10mile race or is it best to hold it back and treat it as a training run? I would like to go out and see what my speed is however do not want to screw up my long-term goals for the fall. Im assuming it may be OK to get a little anerobic work and then return to MAF. My typical training runs start at MAF-20 and then build +5 bpm till MAF-10 range. (MAF = 134) For the 10 miler (after 1-2 mile subMAF warm up) Im thinking of starting the first 3 miles at 140-150bpm, then building miles 4 - 8 @ 150-165 bpm and the finishing the last 2 miles @ 165 - 175+. Does this plan sould OK or is it too aggressive for an anerobic workout?
                  Without knowing your lactate threshold or max heart rate, it's hard to tell if these heart rates are good for you. You have been below MAF for quite awhile, correct? I am sure running the race faster than MAF will be fine. In fact, your body might be ready for a little change up. You may notice your sub-MAF paces decrease after a little faster running at this point. What marathon date are you looking at this fall? I would test out your strategy in one or two 5-mile training runs before the race- maybe 1 mile subMAF, 2 miles 140-150, 1 mile 150-165 and 1 mile 165-175. Depending on your running experience, you may want to ease into faster running instead of possibly shocking your body at the race and getting injured.
                  labhiker


                    thats a good question. I had been planning on Hartford, but it looks like there is a family conflict that weekend. Im now thinking of BayState, CapeCod or Philly? Philly seems like a good time! Its a little up in the air?? I have been working a MAF for a while and really have little if any speed work training, other than 26.2 last fall. I feel my base is pretty solid and had hoped to run VT this past spring. I was ready to go and had to bail out at the last minute. (after all those cold dark morniings it was tough) I have cheated here and there due to a few poor runs and frustration but for the most part have avoided extended times above sub-MAF/ MAF.

                    labhiker

                    labhiker


                      not sure if this is the right place for the post, but here is follow up to a revious post 10M race last night - temps mid 80s (warm). 2200+ field, 1:37:00+/- (9:42pace) Pre-race warm up 1.5 - 2M jog (140s +/- easy pace) Right from the beginning my HR plans fell out the window. I was hoping to start by staying in 150 - 165 range, but found myself immediately towards 170 and at a 9:20 pace. Trying to stick with the plan of lowering HR I was past by many runners but held the concept that I was holding some sort of HR limit. 2nd mile 9:40 @ 171. 9:48 175 (many runners still passing). Lost track of mile splits till the last few miles. Finished the last mile at 9:05 185ave/ 194max (very high) So my planned HR control plan failed. Had I run at my previous target ranges its hard to think of how far back I might have been. The good news is that I had no trouble maintaining a 174 ave/ 194max for 10miles. Breathing was in control the entire run and felt very comfortable, however I was alway anxious & concerned that my HR was always too high and too off plan. I was questioning my performance at mid-race due to the elvated HR but felt OK so kept it going at elevated HR. Glad to see I could close-out at a quicker pace as I still had something left in the tank. Could have gone much further but not at the same HR. Looking ahead I am pleased that I have a good base but am troubled by my very slow pace. I will be going back to slow sub-MAF runs later today hoping to work on improvement. I trust speed improvements will come eventually.

                      labhiker

                      lowgear1


                      Max McMaffelow Esq.

                        not sure if this is the right place for the post, but here is follow up to a revious post 10M race last night - temps mid 80s (warm). 2200+ field, 1:37:00+/- (9:42pace) Pre-race warm up 1.5 - 2M jog (140s +/- easy pace) Right from the beginning my HR plans fell out the window. I was hoping to start by staying in 150 - 165 range, but found myself immediately towards 170 and at a 9:20 pace. Trying to stick with the plan of lowering HR I was past by many runners but held the concept that I was holding some sort of HR limit. 2nd mile 9:40 @ 171. 9:48 175 (many runners still passing). Lost track of mile splits till the last few miles. Finished the last mile at 9:05 185ave/ 194max (very high) So my planned HR control plan failed. Had I run at my previous target ranges its hard to think of how far back I might have been. The good news is that I had no trouble maintaining a 174 ave/ 194max for 10miles. Breathing was in control the entire run and felt very comfortable, however I was alway anxious & concerned that my HR was always too high and too off plan. I was questioning my performance at mid-race due to the elvated HR but felt OK so kept it going at elevated HR. Glad to see I could close-out at a quicker pace as I still had something left in the tank. Could have gone much further but not at the same HR. Looking ahead I am pleased that I have a good base but am troubled by my very slow pace. I will be going back to slow sub-MAF runs later today hoping to work on improvement. I trust speed improvements will come eventually.
                        Saturday July 26, 2008 labhiker, Shame on you! Crossing over to the dark side like that. No, seriously, what a great confidence booster. Nice job. My little m/p this week pales. You're absolutely flying, now behave yourself, and get back to maf-land, ya hear! Lg1
                        ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
                        Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
                        ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)