Low HR Training

Using MAF tests as Race Pace Indicator or Predictor (Read 3105 times)

lowgear1


Max McMaffelow Esq.

    Friday October 17, 2008 This thread has become quite a barn-burner, with Jimmy tirelessly performing triage for upcoming races. I'm not trying to be facetious, either. We all appreciate the huge contributions and sacrifices being made by you, Jimmy. I'm afraid that lots of us would be former runners without your intervention. This, all being done with unequaled skill and flair. I appreciate your coming to my rescue on numerous occassions. A heart-felt thank you, Dr. Brunelle. lg
    ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
    Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
    ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)
    labhiker


      Jimmy - Thanks so much for taking the time to share comments and advice. I greatly apreciate it. My race is actually this weekend so I will not be able to try the structured 10 mile MRP prior to the race. So its off to the races. I fully agree and do not think Im ready for anyting even near a 3:40 pace. Although I dream of such speed as it is close to my BQ it just seems too far a way to even consider at the moment. Maybe next year, or the year after? My goal is to think in terms of setting some realistic pace which will allow me to check in at various splits to see if things are in control. At some point after 20? I want to think it will be all about guts and holding pace knowing the end is near. I am thinking of setting some realistic pace and then using the HR monitor for control/ feedback.

      labhiker

        Jimmy - Thanks so much for taking the time to share comments and advice. I greatly apreciate it. My race is actually this weekend so I will not be able to try the structured 10 mile MRP prior to the race. So its off to the races. I fully agree and do not think Im ready for anyting even near a 3:40 pace. Although I dream of such speed as it is close to my BQ it just seems too far a way to even consider at the moment. Maybe next year, or the year after? My goal is to think in terms of setting some realistic pace which will allow me to check in at various splits to see if things are in control. At some point after 20? I want to think it will be all about guts and holding pace knowing the end is near. I am thinking of setting some realistic pace and then using the HR monitor for control/ feedback.
        Have a great race. You came up with a 9:15-9:45 spread. Best to go with the 9:45, starting a bit slower. If you are wearing your HRM, see where your HR is at after the half. If it's still below 161, you should be able to speed up a little, letting it creep up with each mile. Finishing in the high 180's the last few miles. When you feel the tiredness creeping in, relax your arms and keep your speed. You can do it! I wish you the best weather condiitions! --Jimmmy

        log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #141

         

          Friday October 17, 2008 This thread has become quite a barn-burner, with Jimmy tirelessly performing triage for upcoming races. I'm not trying to be facetious, either. We all appreciate the huge contributions and sacrifices being made by you, Jimmy. I'm afraid that lots of us would be former runners without your intervention. This, all being done with unequaled skill and flair. I appreciate your coming to my rescue on numerous occassions. A heart-felt thank you, Dr. Brunelle. lg
          No sacrifice. This is kicking back and entertaining myself--fun. My passion. I'm more of a Spock than a Doctor McCoy when it comes to this stuff, and when I finish a marathon, I choke up and sound like Kirk with the abnormal pauses. Anyway, you're welcome. And remember--give to my ever-growing Me-Fund. --Jimmy

          log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #141

           

          labhiker


            Those races are very out of date. The 10-miler isn't very helpful, too many variables. Do you have an actual 3 or 5-mile MAF test? When is your marathon? Your training paces aren't too different from mine right now. I'm pretty confident if I ran a marathon tomorrow, I could break 3:40. Doesn't mean you can, BUT it doesn't mean you can't. I suggest that you try a 10-mile MRP tempo run structured like the folllowing: (MILE) (AVE HR PER MILE) Mile 1 145 Mile 2 146 Mile 3 148 Mile 4 150 Mile 5 152 Mile 6 154 Mile 7 156 Mile 8 158 Mile 9 160 Mile 10 161 Average about 153. I base this on your 161 ave HR in your last marathon. The 10 miles should mirror the first 10-miles of a marathon. This will help give you a ballpark number. This MRP tempo can be adjusted as you learn more about how hard you can actually run a marathon. I find that with more experience the tiredness you feel in the last 5 miles doesn't have to slow you down and you can push your HR pretty high. My MHR is like yours (199) and I average 173 in a marathon. If you decide to try such a tempo run, be sure to warm up for a few miles before hand and cool down for 20-30 minutes after (walking). Rest for a few days with no or very light running. Can be stressful. --Jimmy --Jimmy
            Jimmy, Here are a few recent runs on flat terrain near MAF 10/5 43F 12.75miles +/- 121 ave/ 141max age based MAF = 133 warm-up 10:02 112ave/ 119max measured mile 1 12:26 114ave (-19) 2 11:19 118ave/ 127max (-15) 3 11:37 118/124 4 11:05 120/126 5 11:50 120/ 126 6 11:14 122/130 7 11:33 122/128 8 11:25 123/ 128 9 11:31 123/128 10 11:28 126/134 11 11:23 125/132 12 11:13 128/142 (o.87 miles - mostly uphills) 10/8 38F 5.75miles +/- 10:47 ave. pace 129ave/138 max (maf-4) warm up about .9mile 109 (maf-25) measured mile 1 10:52 122ave (-11) 2 10:09 129 (-4) 3 10:20 131 (-2) 4 11:05 131 (distance??)

            labhiker

            lowgear1


            Max McMaffelow Esq.

              more of a Spock than a Doctor McCoy when it comes to this stuff, and when I finish a marathon, I choke up and sound like Kirk with the abnormal pauses. --Jimmy
              as Ronnie R. would say, "Well, there you go again." Brilliant as the fall foliage, per usual! lg
              ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
              Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
              ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)
              lowgear1


              Max McMaffelow Esq.

                If this helps My MAF pace before HM was between 12:30 and 13:00m/m MAF 143 HM was 11:00m/m (10:30 m/m run for 10 minutes with one minute walk breaks) MAF +21 (164) actual race time 2:26:00, McMillian prediction 2:17:00 I felt I could have run slightly faster, maybe 1-2 minutes. Maybe I'll do a MAF test soon, how long should I wait after a race to attempt one? A
                Ayola, How are things going for you since your race? Have you rebounded to reasonable maf paces? I did a simulated race this past Sunday, and really paid an aerobic/maf price. I anticipated as much, but until you actually see the "damage" it's hard to imagine. Too bad they don't sell aerobic insurance. lo
                ♪ ♫ Hey, hey, we're Maf Monkees And people say we monkey around. ♪ ♫ (The Monkees)
                Give me 12:59 in '09, please. I deserve it! (Maf of course)..No more teens! No more teens! (ME! ME! ME!)
                ♪ ♫ I Thank The Lord For The Night Time...And I Thank The Lord For You ♪ ♫ (Neil Diamond)
                  Jimmy, Here are a few recent runs on flat terrain near MAF 10/5 43F 12.75miles +/- 121 ave/ 141max age based MAF = 133 warm-up 10:02 112ave/ 119max measured mile 1 12:26 114ave (-19) 2 11:19 118ave/ 127max (-15) 3 11:37 118/124 4 11:05 120/126 5 11:50 120/ 126 6 11:14 122/130 7 11:33 122/128 8 11:25 123/ 128 9 11:31 123/128 10 11:28 126/134 11 11:23 125/132 12 11:13 128/142 (o.87 miles - mostly uphills) 10/8 38F 5.75miles +/- 10:47 ave. pace 129ave/138 max (maf-4) warm up about .9mile 109 (maf-25) measured mile 1 10:52 122ave (-11) 2 10:09 129 (-4) 3 10:20 131 (-2) 4 11:05 131 (distance??)
                  I can't really weigh in on these training runs and give a marathon pace. Stick with your plan for this one, give it your best shot, record what happens with your HR during the race. It'll be great info for your next one. You'll be able to see how your training times correlate to your marathon pace. Have a great race! --Jimmy

                  log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #141

                   

                  RER


                    No sacrifice. This is kicking back and entertaining myself--fun. My passion. I'm more of a Spock than a Doctor McCoy when it comes to this stuff, and when I finish a marathon, I choke up and sound like Kirk with the abnormal pauses. --Jimmy
                    Fascinating.

                      It would be interesting to see results from someone with, e.g., a MAF pace of 13:00 min/mile. McMillan says that for those whose marathons are over 4 hours, the difference between training pace and marathon pace will be less than for those whose marathons are under 4 hours. I would suspect that as someone's marathon time goes up this difference narrows more and more. McMillan's pace calculator works pretty well for me, plugging in HM or Marathon time to predict the other. HM pace is about 1:30 min/mile faster than training (MAF) pace. Marathon pace is about 30 sec/mile faster than training pace. Unfortunately for me, that's way slower than the extrapolated chart would predict.

                       

                      I used to have 13m MAF pace but I wasn't willing to run a marathon at that point as I had no desire to do a long slow painful marathon. however, based on observations (I did a lot of HR profiling) my guess for marathon pace was ~11:20-11:30 if you want the conservative guess. the slightly less conservative guess was 11:00-11:10. one thing for sure, it wouldn't have been better than that.

                      at that point, actual HM pace was 10:10. (by actual I mean I actually ran one while I had the ~13m MAF pace.)

                      hope this helps. =P

                        This thread is to discuss predicting race pace based on different indicators, most importantly to this forum, MAF tests, and other ideas.... USING MAF TEST AS A MARATHON RACE PACE PREDICTOR. I'll have to get more data as I go. If anyone has any data to add to this thread, please share. It would be interesting to see how your data matches up with Maffetone's chart, and my addition to it. --Jimmy

                         

                         

                        my data for 11:30-11:40 maf pace: 7:32 actual 5K pace. still don't have an actual marathon pace but I would estimate it at 10:20-10:30. perhaps closer to 10:30. that guess comes from estimated HM pace (9:00-9:10) and HR profiles. note I'm maybe being more conservative here than in the past (13m MAF one) because right now I'm not doing any lower HR training for a marathon now.

                         

                        my MAF pace is slightly below 55% vo2max pace. figures for people whose vo2max % is higher at the calculated MAF HR may differ, in my opinion.

                        Can I be Frank


                        Walk This Way...this way

                          Beautiful!

                          I searched hi and lo for this very thread.

                          Only came up with some knuckle-headed avatar

                          purporting to be "MaxMcMaffellow" or some such

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                          bf

                          Can I be Frank


                          Walk This Way...this way

                            This thread is to discuss predicting race pace based on different indicators, most importantly to this forum, MAF tests, and other ideas.... USING MAF TEST AS A MARATHON RACE PACE PREDICTOR. On page 53 of Training for Endurance 2nd Revised Edition by Phil Maffetone ©2000. Maffetone gives a chart based on his" hundreds of tests and several racing seasons." I popped the 5k times on Maffetone's chart into the McMillan calculator and added the equivalent marathon times. I took the rate of slowing at MAF of 8:00-10:00 MAF pace on Maffetone's chart and figured up to 13:00. This could be way off, as if you notice on his chart there is a jump between 7-8:00 that increases twice the rate of slowing on most of the chart. I'm hoping your data can help out with all this. What I figured is separated from and above Maffetone's chart: This may not be accurate, be careful, it may not be wise to use it to determine your pace for a marathon or 5k race. Think of it as a template that you can use to see how your own race times correlate with your MAF test fitness at the time: The MAF time listed is the FIRST MILE time from the MAF test. If the following test miles drop off significantly, then that might be an indicator that your aerobic fitness and endurance isn't good enough to achieve the marathon time. Be careful.

                             

                            MAF....5k pace....5k time.....Marathon.....Mpace

                            13:00...9:00.........27:57..........4:32:29.......10:25

                            12:30...8:45.........27:11..........4:25:00.......10:07

                            12:00...8:30.........26:23..........4:17:12.........9:50

                            11:30...8:15.........25:37..........4:09:44.........9:32

                            11:00...8:00.........24:51..........4:02:15.........9:15

                            10:30..7:45..........24:04..........3:54:37.........8:58

                             

                            10:00..7:30..........23:18..........3:47:09...........8:41

                            9:30....7:15..........22:31..........3:39:31...........8:23

                            9:00....7:00..........21:45..........3:32:02...........8:06

                            8:30....6:45..........20:58..........3:24:24...........7:49

                            8:00....6:30..........20:12..........3:16:55...........7:31

                            7:30....6:00..........18:38..........3:01:39...........6:56

                            7:00....5:30..........17:05..........2:46:32...........6:22

                            6:30....5:15..........16:19..........2:39:04...........6:05

                            6:00....5:00..........15:32..........2:31:26...........5:47

                            5:45....4:45..........14:45..........2:23:48...........5:30

                            5:30....4:30..........13:59..........2:16:19...........5:12

                            5:15....4:20..........13:28..........2:11:17...........5:01

                            5:00....4:15..........13:12....... ..2:08:41...........4:55

                             

                            MY TIMES AND MAF TESTS

                            Using MAF of 180-age +5 beats

                             

                            Marathon.................time.........pace....MAF test near the marathon 1st mile

                            Sugarloaf2006......3:30:36.......8:02................9:04

                            Philly 2006............3:22:10.......7:43................8:15

                             

                            Pretty close. I did these MAF tests on a treadmill in 65-70ºF with a 1% incline, and on tired legs. Perhaps, I could have done the tests faster in a cooler room, no incline, and rested. So, perhaps Maffetone and his chart can be used as an indicator. I'll have to get more data as I go. If anyone has any data to add to this thread, please share. It would be interesting to see how your data matches up with Maffetone's chart, and my addition to it. --Jimmy

                             

                            Beautiful!

                            I searched hi and lo for this very thread.

                            Only came up with some knuckle-headed avatar

                            purporting to be "MaxMcMaffellow" or some such

                            nonsense.

                             

                            bf

                              Beautiful!

                              I searched hi and lo for this very thread.

                              Only came up with some knuckle-headed avatar

                              purporting to be "MaxMcMaffellow" or some such

                              nonsense.

                               

                              bf

                               

                              Bookmark it, Can!

                              log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #141

                               

                              Can I be Frank


                              Walk This Way...this way

                                Bookmark it, Can!

                                 

                                Can do!
                                "CoolRunning" posts reside on this hd as well,
                                but would demand the expertise of a fifth-grader to ferret out. lol!

                                bf