Low HR Training

1

Old New Guy (Read 20 times)

Technorigine


    Hi all; I have lurked for a bit, am somewhat new to MAF training (although I read and was influenced by Phil's articles even 20 years ago), and am thoroughly on board with Low HR training as a means of remediating damage I have incurred over 45 years of running, and in hopes of initiating a third competitive career. I have read all the stickies and am convinced that this is the right place for me to participate and benefit from the advice of others who have blazed the trail already.

     

    Bio: As mentioned, I have been running since 1972, and have had two competitive careers already. The first was ages 15-22, during which I was focused on distance and long distance (roads). Chronic knee problems forced me to turn to other sports, of which technical rock climbing and mountaineering proved the most enjoyable, and using the training principles I learned from running and other sports, was able to reach a pro level as a climber, and to this day make my primary income through this means.

     

    My second racing career was ages 40-50, and while I started with some success on the roads (my only road race overall victory, a 1/2 marathon), I soon realized that I was more competitive against my peers at shorter distances, particularly 400-1500 meters. I slowed through my 40's, but not as much as my peers, and by age 50 had a number of national AG medals, as well as some real success in coaching others to a sub-elite level (including national AG track champions and a competitive women's marathon overall winner).

     

    My highlight PR's are: 400m/55 (age 44) 800m/2:05 (age 44; 2:11 age 50), 1500/4:20 (age 43), 2 miles 10:01 (age 18), 5K 16:08 (age 21; 16:32 age 42) 1/2 mar 1:15 (age 21; 1:18 age 40) and marathon 2:38 (age 22).

     

    Throughout my life I suffered chronic health problems, mostly related to inflammation. I eliminated things like dairy and gluten with some improvement, but things weren't "right". After my careful buildup in mileage last year led to yet another serious respiratory infection, I finally committed to a LCHF (low carb/high fat) diet, and the results have been astounding in both degree and scope. I won't go into much more on this, as it is a topic on which I could write for days.

     

    As a result of LCHF, I became more ketogenic as a runner, and very organically, I got to the point where I ran up to 27 miles on mountain trails on nothing more than a protein bar, salt and water, no carbs at all. The ease with which I could run for hours, and the immediate recovery told me I was entering a new phase. Alas, as I pursued this training more in earnest, I found myself slipping into another "black hole". This time there was no injury or illness, but my legs just felt more "dead" and formerly easy paces became difficult, especially on hills. Once again, researching on the internet led to Phil Maffetone (via Mark Sisson of Mark's Daily Apple), and I finally purchased a heart-rate monitor. Just as so many others have, I discovered I was training on glycogen, despite my low-fat diet. At age 60, my MAF with no adjustments is 120. I was consistently running in the 140s and 150s (7:45-8:15 pace), and was paying the price in being unable to properly maintain mileage and build my aerobic fitness.

     

    Because I am currently living in the mountains, and I want to be able to retain some semblance of running mechanics on uphills, I am, for the time being, training at an average of about 130, with my "faster" days in the 130s capped at 140, and my easier days in the 120s capped at 130. Even with this I am forced to walk on steep or technical terrain, which is fine. Once a week I go to the track to do some speed work, usually 10 x 100 with 3 min rest, plus now my MAF test. Every two weeks I will indulge in a fartlek with paces ranging from 5:30-6:30 per mile with good recovery, just to keep my biomechanics attuned somewhat at a faster pace.

     

    tldr: 60-year old rock climber, returning to training for running competition. My goals are to be able to complete 50K+ comfortably and to return to track form where I can hopefully approach 2:20 for 800m (currently about 15 seconds off that, but previous experience tells me that if I can stay healthy for a year I can achieve that, and more).

     

    My number one priority is overall health, and races are just the cherry on the icing on the (low-carbWink cake!

     

    If anyone has questions regarding shorter distance training and racing, I consider myself well-versed in that area. As far as ultras are concerned I will wave my noobie flag Smile

     

    I am looking to possibly do my first 50k in the spring, I also want to do a two-day rugged alpine traverse in early summer, and to compete on the track mid-summer. Currently I am in the 40's for training mileage, and building without undue stress. I hope to sustain and progress both my miles and my MAF throughout the winter. Already in a few weeks I have dropped my track MAF (run at too-high 135, but in the track I can't really jog slower when fresh) from 10:15 to 9:30. At 120 I am around 10:30-10:45.

    runnerclay


    Consistently Slow

      Welcome to Maff training. You may want to post in the ultra runner forum. There are a few elite ultra  runners using  LHR training or have in the past.

      Run until the trail runs out.

       SCHEDULE 2016--

       The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

      unsolicited chatter

      http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

      Technorigine


        Welcome to Maff training. You may want to post in the ultra runner forum. There are a few elite ultra  runners using  LHR training or have in the past.

         

        Thanks Clay. Do you mean the racing forum (which seems to be mostly marathons)? Or is there a dedicated forum for trail/ultras?

         

        By the way, my name is Bryan, forgot to include that.

         

        Edit: I found the forum through groups. Looks like mainly discussion of races rather than training. Hopefully by next spring I will have a race or two to discuss!

        Docket_Rocket


          Welcome!

           

          Sounds like you have an idea of what you want to do and it sounds reasonable.  Please keep us posted about your progress.

          Damaris

           

          As part of the 2024 London Marathon, I am fundraising for VICTA, a charity that helps blind and visually impaired children. My mentor while in law school, Jim K (a blind attorney), has been a huge inspiration and an example of courage and perseverance. Please consider donating.

          Fundraising Page

          Technorigine


            Great, thanks DR!

            runnerclay


            Consistently Slow

               

              Thanks Clay. Do you mean the racing forum (which seems to be mostly marathons)? Or is there a dedicated forum for trail/ultras?

               

              By the way, my name is Bryan, forgot to include that.

               

              Edit: I found the forum through groups. Looks like mainly discussion of races rather than training. Hopefully by next spring I will have a race or two to discuss!

              You can ask specific question.

              Run until the trail runs out.

               SCHEDULE 2016--

               The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

              unsolicited chatter

              http://bkclay.blogspot.com/

              Technorigine


                About a month into this and my mileage has gone from 20 miles/week to 60, and my pace while running under 130 bpm has dropped at least a minute. Basically I am training four days a week as an ultra guy, i.e. long slow and easy, and the other three as an old sprinter in base training, i.e. slow jog + 100m strides with full recovery, or an easy fartlek including hills. Probably 90% of my miles are now at MAF pace or slower. My form seems to be getting better, I feel more efficient and "runner-like" even when tip-toeing slowly up a hill. All minor aches and pains are GONE. Most of my runs feel like I just got out of a soothing massage or sauna. Relaxed and happy.

                 

                So far, so very very gooood! A real running revelation after 45 years!

                BeeRunB


                  Welcome to the forum, Tech.

                   

                  I've done a lot of experimenting over the years, and I always ran my best and remained healthy when running at or MAF for all my volume during certain periods, and only adding a little bit of tempo work after I built my aerobic engine sufficiently, keeping my HR below 90%MHR as Dr. Phil suggests in his books. It's amazing how a healthy volume of MAF running actually improves speed at anaerobic threshold. Might not improve sprinting speed for a 100m runner, but endurance racing is mostly aerobic and relies mostly on slow twitch fibers. If a runner can improve speed at MAF heart rate from (e.g) 9:00 pace to 7:30 pace, it's amazing how much endurance and speed one gets in races from 5k to marathon. In essence, one becomes a speedy fat-burning machine.

                   

                  The heart of the program is health. What's the point if we can't remain healthy? MAF method increases the probability of remaining healthy. Whenever I get off track from this simple method, I run into problems. I've tried other ways, for many reasons, including to make sure I wasn't missing something better. But I haven't found anything better in terms of running well and staying healthy.

                   

                  I hope you enjoy hanging out here. Post away. We have the daily thread, which is where any sense of community really happens, with Ron and Damaris the current reigning aerobi-deities building an amazing body of work. 

                  Technorigine


                    Thanks Jimmy! When I was looking for an ultra training forum, this one stood out for it's embrace of Maffetone's methodology, and your sticky posts were a major influencing factor in my choice. So good to see intelligent people empirically finding their own right path.

                     

                    I have known for decades that the keys for me in distance training were:

                     

                    1) More mileage

                    2) Consistency

                     

                    What was missing was the best specific methodology for accomplishing that. With an HR monitor and Phil's guidelines, everything seems to have clicked into place.

                     

                    I strongly endorse your comments about health. Phil is the first coach/expert I have see that emphasizes how performance and health are not equivalent, and may even be contradictory. Many things that athletes do for short-term gain do so at the expense of long-term health. My decades of experience tell me that that is a poor tradeoff. I want to dwell in the zone of overlap between health AND fitness, however narrow that may sometimes be.