Low HR Training

1

Using MAF tests as Race Pace Predictor (2nd Edition) (Read 1990 times)

    (this is repost and update of an earlier thread found here--Jimmy)

     

    On page 92 of The Big Book of Endurance Training And Racing, Dr. Phil gives a chart based on his " hundreds of tests and several racing seasons" of his athletes. This chart can be found in some of his other books as well, including Training for Endurance (2nd Revised Edition by Phil Maffetone ©2000) page 53.

     

    I took the rate of slowing of the MAF pace column on the chart and just extended it up to 13:00, and added in 9:30.

     

    I popped the 5k times on Dr. Phil's chart into the McMillan and the Team Oregon Pace Wizard calculators, and then added the equivalent marathon and half marathon times from the calculators to the chart. Normally, when I pop in race times, I find McMillan to be accurate if the conditions are right, and if my aerobic engine is in tip-top shape. The Team Oregon Pace Wizard seems to be more the average.

     

    DIsclaimer: This may not be accurate, be careful, it may not be wise to use it to determine your pace for a marathon or 5k race. Think of it as a template that you can use to see how your own race times correlate with your MAF test fitness at the time: The MAF time listed is the FIRST MILE time from the MAF test.

     

     

    **Dr. Phil's original chart is in bold type, while my additions are in plain text

     

    MAF

    test

    1st

    mile

    5k

    race pace

    5k

    race time

    half

    marathon

    race time

    Mcmillan---Team Oregon

    marathon

    race

    time

    Mcmillan---Team Oregon

    13:00
    9:00
    27:57
    2:09:12---2:12:15
    4:32:29---4:39:30
    12:30
    8:45
    27:11
    2:05:39---2:08:37
    4:25:00---4:31:50
    12:00
    8:30
    26:23
    2:01:57---2:04:50
    4:17:12---4:23:50
    11:30
    8:15
    25:37
    1:58:25---2:01:12
    4:09:44---4:16:10
    11:00
    8:00
    24:51
    1:54:52---1:57:35
    4:02:15---4:08:30
    10:30
    7:45
    24:04
    1:51:15---1:53:52
    3:54:37---4:00:40
    10:00
    7:30
    23:18
    1:47:42---1:50:15
    3:47:09---3:53:00
    9:30
    7:15
    22:31
    1:44:05---1:46:32
    3:39:31---3:45:10
    9:00
    7:00
    21:45
    1:40:32---1:42:55
    3:32:02---3:37:30
    8:30
    6:45
    20:58
    1:36:55---1:39:12
    3:24:24---3:29:40
    8:00
    6:30
    20:12
    1:33:22---1:35:35
    3:16:55---3:22:00
    7:30
    6:00
    18:38
    1:26:08---1:28:10
    3:01:39---3:06:20
    7:00
    5:30
    17:05
    1:18:58---1:20:50
    2:46:32---2:50:50
    6:30
    5:15
    16:19
    1:15:25---1:17:12
    2:39:04---2:43:10
    6:00
    5:00
    15:32
    1:11:48---1:13:30
    2:31:26---2:35:20
    5:45
    4:45
    14:45
    1:08:11---1:09:47
    2:23:48---2:27:30
    5:30
    4:30
    13:59
    1:04:38---1:06:10
    2:16:19---2:19:50
    5:15
    4:20
    13:28
    1:02:15---1:03:43
    2:11:17---2:14:40
    5:00
    4:15
    13:12
    1:01:01---1:02:27
    2:08:41---2:12:00

     

    SOME OF MY TIMES AND CORRESPONDING MAF TESTS

    Using MAF of 180-age +5 beats (141)

     

    MARATHON
    time
    pace

    MAF

    TEST

    1st

    mile

    Race

    temp

    MAF

    test

    temp

    Philadelphia '05 3:28:10
      7:57

    9:04

    50º 64º
    Sugarloaf USA '06
    3:30:32
      8:02

    9:05

    48-64º 64º
    Philadelphia '06
    3:22:10
      7:43

    8:15

    42-48º 72º
    Vermont City '08    
    3:38:44
      8:21

    8:55

    73º 64º
    HALF MARATHON



       
    Newport '05 1:36:21   7:21 9:04 65º 64º
    Newport '06 1:34:27   7:13 8:15 57º 64º
    5K          
    Giunta 5k 4/07 21:19   6:52 9:23 55º 68º
    Warren 4/08 20:49   6:43 8:55 48º 64º

     

    I include temperature for each race and test, as it is an important variable to include when making comparison. I found my marathon and half marathon times to correspond well with the MAF paces on the chart, and with each other. My endurance was pretty good then.

     

    My 5k paces were  faster than what the chart says they should have been, but if you account for the temperature

    differences between the tests and the races, they line up pretty closely. The Warren 5k lines up well with the marathon

    pace I ran in May (accounting for temperature). Let's look at how I figured the adjustment for temperature. A race run in

    in 48º can up to 5% faster than one run in 64º.

     

    The Warren 5k could have been as slow as 21:52 in 64º (5%). This lines up well with 8:55 MAF pace. I went into Vermont City Marathon in MAy in 3:30 ish shape, according to my own data that I keep on MAF test pace vs. marathon pace. The race ended up getting very warm and sunny, and I had to adjust pace mid-race in order to finish well, and ended up with 3:38.

     

    The Giunta 5k could have been as slow as 22:10 in 68º (4%).

     

     

    Dr. Phil writes on page 95 of The Big Book of Endurance Training And Racing that if your 5k pace is faster than the 5k pace on the chart for your MAF first mile then there might be an imbalance between your aerobic and anaerobic system. "in other words, this runner might be in the early stages of over-training where 'over-performance' appears at the expense of an unhealthy aerobic system."

     

    I think what he's getting at is that when his athletes systems were in balance, and feeling healthy and not over-trainined, he observed that the MAf pace and 5k pace would match up like on the chart.

     

    One way to see it is that when your 5k pace is faster than it should be on the chart, you need more aerobic work (maybe lower volume). If it's slower, then you might need to do some speedwork. Not sure if this is the correct view (it sounds good). Cool

     

    I believe the above chart might be a handy tool to add to the other ones you keep in your chest. Equally as important is keeping track of how your race performances relate to your own MAF test times. E.G. I know that my MAF tests should be averaging low-9's at 180-age+5 in order to run a 3:28-3:30 marathon in cool weather.

     

    MAF tests should not be regressing.

     

    Please compare your own times, take temperature into

    account, and post about it.

     

     --Jimmy

    log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #141

     

      nice thread! Smile 

       

      I'll add my info:

       

      MAF according to 180-age formula would be 153bpm if I don't subtract or add anything.

       

       

       1. my current PR's from last fall sept/nov:

       

      2010/09:

      5K: 23:28
      5K race pace: 7:30

      5K temp: 60F

      MAF test at 153bpm 1st mile: ~11:30

      MAF test temp: 59F

       

      2010/11:

      HM: 1:47:27
      HM race pace: 8:12

      (note: I'd love to say 8:00 but I started out too slow in the race, duh.)

      HM temp: 45F
      MAF test at 153bpm 1st mile: ~11:15

      MAF test temp: 55F

       

      marathon: no marathon yet

       

      that table says my MAF pace should be 10:00 for first mile.

       

      funny but looking at my runs around half marathon time, I had 10:15-10:20's for first mile at around 159bpm (after warmup).

      around 5K time (2months before half marathon) I had 10:00 first mile (after warmup) typically at 170bpm...

      those were training runs in temps of about 50-60F.

       

      (yes you can tell my endurance improved by the time I got to HM... and if I went into details on this then nobody would believe me about what kind of training did it! lol. anyway, I don't want to go off topic here!)

       

       

       

      2. old PR's:

       

      2010/05:

      HM: 2:13:35

      HM race pace: 10:11

      HM temp: 72F + very sunny

      MAF test at 153bpm first mile: ~12:45

      MAF test temp: 54F

       

      (predicted MAF pace from chart would be outside 13min/mile)

       

      2010/07:

      this wasn't standard 5K but 4.5mile race, I add it just for extra data, as it's close-ish to 5K distance

      4.5mile: 36:26

      4.5mile race pace: 8:05

      race temp: 90F (but in shade)

      MAF test at 153bpm first mile: ~12:15

      MAF test temp: 75F (in shade)

       

      (predicted MAF pace from chart would be 11min/mile assuming 5K race pace at 8:00)

       

      my thoughts on the old data: july is pretty much in line with the later data, but the may data isn't. I did blow up the HM race a bit by starting out too fast, but I think that data is still different, basically the chart predicts that the HM race pace would have been better off the 12:45 MAF test.. quite the other way around for all my later stuff.

       

      but I will add to this that 5K race would have been definitely better than 27:57 around that time when I ran the HM.. I did run a 26:40 5K as a tempo run in training around the time I ran HM and that tempo run wasn't all-out (8:36 pace), and it was accurate distance because I ran it on a nearby track.. I guess 8:20 would be a good guess for race pace and then the table would put my MAF pace at 11:40 or so.

       

      soo, I think this difference between 5K and HM could be explained by endurance problems.. (in addition to crappy race, I did definitely have some endurance issues)

       

      and what changed later is that the half marathon time got lined up with 5K so I have the same differential actual race pace versus chart prediction not just at 5K but at half marathon too, now. (better endurance I guess...)

      Tennesotans


        I realize I'm a MAF newbie (6 weeks) -- but I'm waaay out of whack. My 5k time is 26:00, my MAF is 13:30 Sad

         

        I know... just keeping running, just keep running....

          Just keep working on your aerobic engine and the MAF will catch up, mine is

           

          The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

           

          2013 Goals:

          5k = sub 21:00

          HM = sub 100 minutes

          Run = 3650 / 2 miles

          Bike = 3500 miles

          Swim = 150 miles

          Race 1st HIM

            Thanks for the chart.

             

            1. mile of my latest MAF test is 8:37 and the chart correlates to a HM of 1:38-1:39.

             

            In 2007, MAF HR:135  (180-50+5)

             

            Aerobic run 7:42/mile    HR:133       1/2M :  1:22:55  ***** over-performance,  in February

            Aerobic run 7:44/mile    HR:128             M :  3:10:05******under-performance, in May  ( temperature drifted up).

              I realize I'm a MAF newbie (6 weeks) -- but I'm waaay out of whack. My 5k time is 26:00, my MAF is 13:30 Sad

               

              I know... just keeping running, just keep running....

               

               

              that's okay.. it will improve. too bad our brain works on a different time scale than our body. i.e. brain thinks fast, body builds slow.. Smile

               

              and this has me wondering - why is it that so many MAF'ers -including myself- seem to feel that improvement and performance is so important yet willing to run "slow"? curious combination Smile

               

              so anyway, some base building, then some anaerobic phase, then base build again ...the more of this, the more you'll see your endurance improve. at least that's how it worked out for me.

               

              so the job to do here is just to enjoy the running! not a difficult job is it? Cool

                and this has me wondering - why is it that so many MAF'ers -including myself- seem to feel that improvement and performance is so important yet willing to run "slow"? curious combination Smile

                 

                 

                Deep down we're all Maffochists.

                 

                Cool

                --Jimmy

                log   prs      Crusted Salt comic #141

                 

                labhiker


                  Thanks Jimmy, This chart is a great resource. 

                  labhiker