Low HR Training

1

pace disaster (Read 35 times)

pimma


    Hi! I'm just writing to hopefully get constructive advice or commiseration. I've formally been trying low HR training since the beginning of June. I had been training via the Galloway method since January for a November marathon, but I never seemed to increase my stamina, so I was ready for a change.

     

    Although I've never done a MAF test, I've been doing all of my runs in the general prescribed zone. My pace began at 13 something per mile (previously, when left to my own devices, it was 11-12) and has progressively gotten worse. There have been a run or two that seemed to improve, but today I ran for two hours and finished with an average pace of 17:22. Worst ever. I honestly want to cry.

     

    I'm 43, I've been running at 132-137. I take one rest day a week and generally go out for 40-50 minute runs apart from my one long run.  Is this just never going to work for some people? November seems so soon, now.

    BeeRunB


      Hey Pimma,

       

      There's no crying in MAF training, just mild whining. 

       

      If you're getting slower at the same HR, whether it be 130 bpm, 140, bpm, or 170 bpm, then that means you're body is being overstressed in some way and your aerobic system is becoming suppressed, or your body is exhausted in some way. This could be due to more time on your feet (a.k.a. volume), increased heat and humidity, not enough recovery, increased mental stress, glycogen is too low, iron, vitamin D, or some other mineral vital for speed is low, etc. Some questions:

       

      You didn't do the MAF test in the beginning as prescribed by the program, but did you do a run in the beginning that was at MAF and keep the results and splits from it?

       

      Is it summer where you are?

       

      Have you increased the amount of time on your feet since starting MAF training?

       

      Are you still doing Galloway? Or did you stop the walk breaks and start running everything when you started MAF training?

       

      How are you feeling? Still feel energetic? Exhausted? Legs feel good? Feel dead?

       

      Do you have a high bodyfat %?  (bodyfat will slow you down in the heat--from drag and not being able to dissipate heat quickly enough)

       

      Very important: has mental stress increased in your life in the past few months?

       

      In my own training, I've run 17:00 miles after time off, but managed to improve with a gradual program. I've seen regression like yours in training from too much volume in the summer, a drastic cut in carbs, and a marked increase in mental stress to abnormally high levels due to things going on in life that couldn't be avoided. Each of these things increased stress on the body and slowed me down. Abnormally high mental stress puts a hormonal overload on the body and affects the aerobic system.

       

      That's all I have right now. Let's see if we can pinpoint what's going on. 


      Slow and Steady

        Also...how many hours a week do you run at MAF pace? For me, I never saw (and still never see) results until I am running at least 6 hours a week at MAF pace. But then again, if you're overstressed as jimmyb asks, maybe adding more hours is not the answer.

        Eric S.

        Trail Mix ||| dailymile ||| RA log

        Goals: 50km, 50-miler, 100km, 100-miler

        pimma


          Thank you both so much for responding. I'll try to reply with all pertinent info but I'm sure I'll add a bunch of extraneous stuff, too.

           

          It is hot and humid, for sure. 98 during the day, but I generally run at 5:45 in the morning. (I do feel like I'm not getting as much sleep as I should, but this is how it goes in the summer: kids home in the daytime, me catching up on work at night.) The thing is, when I run it's humid but only between 70-78 degrees. My BMI is not ideal -- 25. Just but decidedly on the bad side. (I had a coxsackie virus a week ago, which might explain the 17 minutes, but not all of the 15 minute paces before it!)

           

          I don't Walk/Run anymore. The crazy thing -- the thing that literally felt insane -- is that when I started running at MAF I had to walk so much of the time just to keep my HR down. Like, my body would be making a slow running motion for half a block and them bam! HR went up to 140. It was super upsetting. I don't know why. (That's actually how I found this forum. Probably googling "why am I so mad about my heart rate?") I have finally gotten to the point where I can maintain a running motion for an entire four miles without having to walk. I know this should feel like progress but the fact that I ran over a 17 minute pace yesterday really kind of messes with that.

           

          One other positive is that I do feel good at MAF. Like I've finally hit a (snail's) pace that I could run at all day. Which maybe I should do, because I'm not at 6 hours a week. I'd love for that to be the solution.

           

          Is it too late for me to do a MAF test? I'll look to see if I still have my first run in my ga

          Garmin archive.

           

          Thanks again for jumping in!

          BeeRunB


            Hey Pimma,

             

            So there has been an extra stress on the body with the virus. That can explain a 2 minute jump from the 15's. With a BMI of 25 and the heat and humidity, you'll experience rise in HR at the same pace. If it were 50º, it would be much easier to keep HR steady and for much longer. As for 15:00 pace at 140 BPM---it is what it is. That's your level of aerobic fitness relative to the summer weather. If it were 50º, you might be running 13:00 pace.

             

            Sometimes at the beginning, there will be brief regression in pace because you're focusing almost exclusively on slow twitch fibers for the first time. They'll get exhausted quickly in the beginning until all the good stuff like mitochondria and capillaries begin to build up.

             

            Do an MAF test this week and start trying to improve upon that benchmark. It can be anywhere from 1-5 miles, or 20-60 minutes. Just make sure you use the same course for each test. Treadmill is ideal for MAF tests.  Make sure to keep stats like temperature, humidity, wind speed and humidity. If you use a TM, record temp and humidity.

             

            Walk breaks to get HR down are fine. Walking doesn't hurt aerobic fitness, it helps. One strategy is to use a 10-15 beat zone below MAF. If your MAF is 140, use 125-140. Warmup 10-15 minutes gradually getting HR to the bottom of the zone, then hold that pace as best as possible. It'll give you wiggle room so you don't have to be checking your watch all the time. Your HR will rise over time. Another strategy is to run at MAF. You'll be running your fastest within that range. Though you'll slow throughout the run. Some use a 10-15 zone and do runs like intervals, spending time at MAF, then slowing down to the lower HR for an interval, then speeding up again.

             

            Be patient. It takes time. Keep building volume a little each week, and make sure to take a recovery day weekly. Pay attention to your body and what it's telling you. It's vocabulary is simple "Hey, mind, I'm tired", "Hey, mind, I'm hurting,", "If you don't pay attention to me and take a rest, I'm going to force you to take six weeks or more off with a nice boo-boo, wrecked adrenal glands, and one of the 3 states of overtraining syndrome!"

             

            Lastly, you get 3 slowness-induced whines. We'll count this as your first of three. If a 4th whine is reached, you'll have to crew for all of the ultrarunners in this forum  during an ultra at least one time for each. Duties include feeding, blister care, leg massages, singing Enya songs or cooing, telling them to keep going even though they seem near death, shining knee braces, and applying duct tape to chafed regions.

             

            Good luck! Keep us posted. 

             

             

            p/s: Keep track of your resting heart rate (RHR) as well. Take it in bed in the morning, or just sir for 5 minutes before a run and then take it. THe stress in your body often shows up in the RHR. If normally, your RHR is 60 bpm, you might see 70-75 when you have a virus. When your body is exhausted in some way, you might see a 5+ jump, either higher or lower. If you see more than 5 bpm, rest or do a recovery run.


            Slow and Steady

              The good news is that you (probably) will not reach three pace-induced whines. Big grin I think I'm still at one.

               

              I also have experienced the run/walk frustration. There have been times when my walking pace is faster than my MAF jogging pace, while my HR is below my MAF pace! The second I start jogging, pace goes down and HR goes up. That was in the early days. I'm still slow but can keep jogging now.

               

              Anyway, like you, I enjoy the feeling that I can run forever, slow as it may be. As an ultrarunner (in between races at the moment, ahem), being able to go forever is a big plus. Also, I love the feeling that I don't really have to eat! I think that SOME carbs are necessary (jimmyb weigh in here) to help your body on using the fat for fuel. But I'm no longer dependent on carbs to avoid the bonk, because I never bonk. (Or at my pace, maybe I'm running forever at bonk pace.)

              Eric S.

              Trail Mix ||| dailymile ||| RA log

              Goals: 50km, 50-miler, 100km, 100-miler

              pimma


                Thank you both, again! Those are valuable insights, jimmyb, and offseid, your walk/run tale is very encouraging. I'm going to do a MAF test tomorrow. Details are probably in one of the stickies, right?  It's one of those things I'm pretty sure I've read dozens of times and thought, "yes, of course, one day I should do that..." I mean, this time I actually WILL.

                 

                I'm looking forward to it. And to carefully meting out my remaining two whines.

                BeeRunB


                  You're welcome.

                   

                  https://philmaffetone.com/maf-test/

                   

                  Warm-up 15-20 minutes getting to MAF HR, then start the test, keeping your HR as close to MAF HR as possible. If it's 140, a zone of 138-142 is okay in terms of short-term peaks and valleys. The test can be by distance or duration. If distance, 1-5 miles is fine. The important thing is to use the same course, or a treadmill set at the same incline, for each test. Every month is fine, if you skip a month, make sure to monitor your regular runs at or below MAF, they should be getting faster as well.

                   

                  Expect to see slowing from mile to mile during an MAF test. Over time there should be less of a rate of slowing per mile during the test. Stay relaxed, the results aren't a big deal. If you aren't seeing progress over a number of months, or are regressing, then training adjustments might be in order.

                   

                  Good luck!

                   

                  pimma


                    Oh man, you are the tops!